Framework 16: The Ultimate Upgradeable Laptop

More of a workstation than a gaming laptop. Imo it seems perfect for VMs due to 64GB RAM max and 2 M.2 SSD slots. I keep my laptop docked anyway and use external screen & mouse&kb

Great review as always.
At this price i have better luck with mac .

I was in the batch 1 for the first 13 inch 11th gen framework and batch 1 for the first AMD framework. The third iteration with AMD feels significantly better than the first one. I assume the same will happen with the 16 inch framework. Every iteration will get better and you will be able to upgrade it to fix whatever you didn't like. Other than the bios battery fix I didn't install any improvement on the 11th gen.

As usual amazing work Josh... but you said at the end "heat and fan noise is NO macbook" period... been suffering fan noise with windows / linux laptop for the last 2-3 years trying to find the ideal NOT macbook model but honestly... when you work with a laptop which is deadly silent you can't go back to even a whisper noise...

According to Framework, the 240W charging is not for later, it's for when you tax the CPU and GPU right now. Unfortunately, nobody currently makes a 240W USB-C adapter, so the battery will drain even when you're plugged in if you push the laptop all the way.

You're such a blessing to us the viewers. If there is only ONE tech channel i have to subscribe to, it's yours. Honest and reliable. Thank you so much.

I admit that I'm not convinced by the Framework 16 and its intended use case. I find that for the same price, I'm much better served by the AMD Framework 13 (which is amazing) for portability, and a desktop for gaming or working at home.

Dude... The only reason I'm buying a laptop is because it's the framework. It's not like I want a dedicated gpu gaming laptop so I choose it. It's simply because they came out with the 16 inch, and there's no way I'll buy a laptop that's not as feature rich and customizable. I've been gaming on geforce now for years without a hitch. If the choice is any other gaming machine - nothing, then nothing would win for the next, possibly, decade. I want to support them, I want to tinker, and I want to reduce my future waste impact. I just hope my trust isn't misplaced (but after this review I'm sure my friend would hate this machine. He's an apple guy, through and through. A hint of coil whine would drive him up the wall, meanwhile me, having 5 phones, all broken and barely functioning chrome os as daily driver... Oh mind you, a 96gb ram kit is waiting for my framework. And I'll use an old m.2...let's see which other laptops can be bought without ram and ssd)

Framework have been very transparent about their process and I know they'll keep working through the imperfections.

-What happened with my previous comment? Why was it deleted?"

i desperately need a laptop and wanted a framework so bad but they don't even ship to india smh

From my experience with an ideapad 5 15 (broken hinge design) I don't care if it looks dated or even if it looks like an acual piece of crap, I care that the thing is well designed, well cooled and well built.

Where was the macbook M3 in the gaming section. Oh, that's right.

thanks guys for the honest review. you are my favorite reviewers

Isn't this GPU module a bit of a limitation by itself? The fans are on each side. If you want a really powerful GPU, manifacturers have to place the fans right over the CPU and GPU to cool them down nowadays.

Could it mean this laptop would never be able to have anything stronger than this AMD GPU they have (4060 equivalent)?

Definately does not appear to be production ready model. Dated design with chonky form factor, added with heating issues, avg performance and that outrageous price ......LOL, glad I went with Legion Slim 7 Amd @ 1199 USD (7840HS + 4060).

Intriguing bit on the coil whine, from the 5th update on the F16 shipping timing update (Jan 11): “Resolved issues: 1. Tuning capacitor noise - We found and resolved one additional scenario that could result in a high pitch noise coming from the Mainboard when using >20V power adapters.”

I wonder if perhaps there are more scenarios where this occurs, or if you managed to somehow get a unit without this fix.

Appreciate your review. I'm glad I canceled my Framework 16 laptop a month or two ago. It was a difficult choice because I wanted to support their vision, but ended up doing so because I rarely use my current laptop and couldn't justify spending $2000 on a new one. Seeing your and LTT's review I'm glad I did. Thank you :)

Great review !

So I think you are right about a back end dev making that software. That gui is built in python using the "pysimplegui" module. I can't believe I have seen a shipping product use that haha.

Idk if this is actually a good laptop, because people have been begging for a laptop that you can upgrade everything on it but why though? The laptop form factor is just so limited for customization. Look at all these comprises when everything is so customizable that it’s janky.

Everytime I see a comparison video of some sort, Macbooks are always on top.

Josh thank & Taylor for the review and the testing on linux

Never heard of Framework before

I think the most interesting thing will be how Framework handles a Gen 2 of this product. It may just be needing to buy a Gen 2 chassis which would save Gen 1 users a lot of money as they can carry over any components they don't need upgraded and buying any upgrades where needed. That could save you a lot of money compared to buying a brand new laptop from another company even with its current price tag.

this dudes voice and body motions are so neurotic... but he does great reviews, lol

Too big, too heavy, too hot, and the battery life isn't great. All of these things, coupled with the premium price, make Framework a complete nonstarter for me, at least. When any M-series MacBook delivers two to three times better performance in every field by comparison, I'll happily take the hit on interchangeable slots.

OH NO A HALF INCH BEZEL, THIS LAPTOP IS COMPLETE UNUSABLE GARBAGE, THROW IT AWAY

Was looking forward for that review. We don't need false hype but honesty. And that's what you delivered. Thank you :)

Thank you for the objective review and not going for hype train clicks and views. A bit gutted, I expected better than this, particularly from battery and heat management. Think I may just cancel my preorder (I'm a Linux coder, ordered similar without the GPU) and wait a year or so. Sigh Lenovo till then.

The biggest concern I have with a company like Framework is whether consumers are truly willing to spend a little more on something that is fully upgradeable/cuztomizable at the exchange of paying a little bit less and maybe getting extended warranty for their non-Framework laptop. Don't get me wrong, the company seems on a great path and they're doing something unique, but at this moment, I can't possibly justify being so caught up in upgradeability when modern day warranties can cover 99% of use cases.

As you pointed out, the Framework 16 has a lot of issues, but the issues it has don't really bother me too much. Plus, I love what the company has set out to do, and I already have an 11th gen 13", so I already know what to expect. Great review, and I can't wait for mine to come in!

I don't know why framework is so bad at engineering laptops, first the 13" form-factor which was an obvious mistake, then the expansion slots which are too big for what they are (no dual connections?), frankly just give me 1 or 2 changeable ports, more than that and you're being a gimmick. And now the chassis of the 16", which seems to me like another mistake.

Will arrive in the future a big and bad gaming model?

Framework seems bring the Old Laptop era back, when they were modular, fairly easy to disassemble and flexible

This probably just make today's laptop from other brands kinda.... I don't know what can I say

A very good review! As far as I know, the prices for upgrade kits with new chip generations that frameworks sells, are cheaper then buying a new one. So the higher price might be justified when comparing it over two generations time. Two "normal" Laptops are probably more expensive then one Framework + upgrades. Just a little change of perspective.

Really good review! I'm especially impressed that you even went through the software too, including using Linux. I have my eyes on Framework for the day I need a new laptop. Hopefully they support even more keyboard layouts by then!

Do you think that future versions of this laptop will improve on those issues, or have Framework locked themselves in by having to stick to a sub-optimal chassis and general form factor to follow their upgradability mission?

2 seconds in, my reaction: “Wow, that thing is hideous”. Hard pass.

The price issues are rubbish. If I want to upgrade the RAM in my Framework, I buy more RAM and pop it in. If I want a bigger SSD in it, I buy a bigger SSD, pop it in, and reinstall/transfer the data from my old SSD. If the screen or anything else breaks, I order the replacement part and fix it myself. If I want a newer, faster CPU when it comes out, I order a new motherboard and swap it in myself. Try doing that with a Macbook. You cannot. Over the long term, total cost of ownership with a Framework will be much cheaper.

Update: To the trolls who are slamming me, you bring up very specific cases to try to counter my arguments. That is called cherry-picking. Yes, someone could buy an HP Elitebook or they could keep their Macbook for 8 to 10 years. That does not counter my arguments that Framework has a lower total cost of ownership over the years for most people than most other laptops of its class. Buy whatever you want. But stop cherry-picking. That is dishonest.

Nice honest objective review Josh! Much appreciated. Fully get FW's mission however I don't know if this laptop is worth it at its price point given there are other laptops that have better QA, aren't dated with design, and are highly repairable (HP Elitebooks are a good example). But kudos to FW for what they are trying to do and I wish them nothing but success. This is a gen 1 product and it will only get better!

Yes, it's not perfect, but as a developer I do not have much of a choice here - ether buy MacBook or use Linux on windows machine with all driver problems that come with it. I need Unix system and therefore my choices extremely limited.

Only problem I have is that it's not available in my country and I would have to figure out logistics, that is the only reason I might consider going back to MacBook.

I'm disappointed that you didn't run any performance tests on the iGPU. The Intel 13th gen may outperform the Framework in CPU performance (at the cost of a LOT more power consumption, so that edge will disappear as soon as you unplug), but that iGPU will beat them like a drum. I'm also looking forward to similar tests on Meteor Lake laptops, which should be more competitive in graphics performance.

I wonder why they sent it to you with only 16 GB RAM? If you're buying a laptop in this class, you should be going for 32 GB minimum. That goes double if you plan to use the iGPU, as it will gobble 4 GB of your RAM in graphics performance mode.

To my mind, the 7700S option is something of a miss. I'd either spec that without a graphics card or wait for something more powerful. Perhaps buy now and get the graphics later?

I don't understand why companies put low quality speakers on a laptop. Wouldn't it just be better for everyone if they didn't put any speakers in? They could use that space for a bigger battery in 13/14" devices or an additional M.2 slot.

A bit larger and upgradable is better than shorter and fixed components for life

My plan was to get it without a GPU and get an nvidia card when they become available,. It's extremely nice to have that option, but there may be too many other downsides here :(
Also, I would be very interested in the screen's latency and motion clarity performance, but I'm sure other more gaming focused channels will cover that. This review was excellent and very much appreciated!

I had the exact same conclusion before you got to yours: Too many usability issues to tempt me to abandon my current laptop (it's only issue is a complete lack of upgradeability).

I loooove framework, but this laptop kinda sucks apart from the obvious…

If you don't recommend this laptop, then what do you recommend for Linux users? Becuase in the US, there isnt any other modern option with a dGPU. System76 is uncompetitive with even Framework and Tuxedo and Slimbook are a fortune to ship to the US and lack good keyboard layouts.

First, I want to preface this comment that I have massive respect for Josh and his team and all of the work they do, especially with hold OEMs accountable. However, Josh, I have watched LTT's review and that plus some update emails that Framework has sent out make me think that your unit may have been defective. I'm in batch 1, and I'll compare my unit to your review unit when it comes, but I do expect some things to be improved when the retail unit comes to me.

And with 2024 bringing even more laptops with less upgradability (like soldered RAM) and with very few options that are good with good Linux support, I dont think there's any alternative for my use case. Sure, this laptop isn't perfect. Nothing is in life. But given that the alternative is to have a super outdated feeling Linux first laptop or have to install Linux on a Windows laptop and basically be on my own in terms of driver support (as I have been before), I'll gladly take this laptop, because as somebody who really feels strongly about right to repair and not using macOS or Windows, I literally don't have any other option for my use case.

Again, I'm not blaming you or Taylor for reviewing what appears to be a defective unit and calling out said defects. I just think maybe there could be more to the story. And as I'm in batch 1, we'll soon know the truth about the retail units.