Hifi Myths - Audiophiles Don't Need Subs?

Great and consistent information. Thanks

As usual, very helpful, thanks Tarun👍

I'm surprised some ppl don't like subs. I'm not an audiophile, but I am a musician and without a sub you can't get the full feel of sound especially for bass instruments from all the families.

For a proud audiophile existence on a boomer, or open sub in your room is messing all the other sounds that you suppose to hear.

A proud aoudiophile should spend his money on well made enclosed speakers.
That is a word from a sound engineer. They will never ever use woofers when analizing the quality in reproduction by speaker...
Enogh said.

Spot On

Subwoofers are awesome! I have 2 DLS Flatsub Midi on each channel og my amp's preamp output. They ensure I get the whole range audible frequencies which makes a huge difference for instance on electronic music or even on a record like Lou Reed's Walk On The Wild Side, you really get that contrabass to the lowest bottom !! You can have any sorts of speakers, your subs will cover the missing lowest frequencies anyway!

If you already have a killer set of speakers which are capable of a full range of frequencies down to around 20 hz - then a subwoofer is never needed.
Having a flat response is also meaningful.

Liked that one!

Well, as in everything it is a matter of tastes, I could never care less about a sub. I would never buy bookshelves speakers and then spend more money to put them on stands and then add subwoofers. The space occupied by stands, in my setup there are full size speakers and I don't like the low frequency instruments anyway so no sub, more money for me, for something that i value more, like buying DSD music or any good digital recordings.

Very good advice.

Thanks for this, some very well made points. I was one of those that thought why do I want a boom box apart from for movies. Since adding a sub, I notice how much space there is amongst instruments and everything has changed for the better. I really appreciate your informative videos.

True audiophiles with financial capacity pursue the best music reproduction wherever it takes them. No way can this be done without a sub that goes down to 20 hz, at least. To say this is for bass junkies exposes an audiophile as an impostor. BTW 10 hz is where the bass is felt but not heard. I'm just a music aficionado so I do with subs I can afford at around 40 hz. They make a very big difference no matter the quality of your mains.

I have a small stereo at low volume all is fine but the bass is is under powered. Is there a gizmo that will give it more punch at low volume without too much fuss?

You don’t need subs but if you want full range sound and are willing to do the tweaking the sound will be more realistic.

My pair of SVS SB3000 subs aren't going anywhere. They complete the 2 channel system and pair nicely with the KLH Model 5's. I also have the subs hooked into the television, using the 3.5 mm audio out jack, out to an RCA switch with a 50hz frequency blocker in line to both subs. Sound bar handles the voice incredibly well. The subs are not going anywhere.

What do you listen to banjo music? The nice thing about a subwoofer is you can turn it down or even off

Subwoofers and acoustic treatment. By far the two biggest upgrades to anyone's audio system.

I've used my Rel Strata III for close to 20 years. With a few pairs of main speakers. From time to time I take it out of my system but it always come back!

Looks like rel stadium. i've had once rel stentor III.
I was about to get rel studio 3 the weight makes it not possible...

A subwoofer is akin to a supertweeter; both enhance the stereo soundstage, ideally without noticing either.

I love my vintage M&K push-pull slot loaded powered sub with dual 12" woofers, circa 1990's. ❤

I'm impressed with your channel! I recently cleared out enough space so I could place a pair of REL 5/tx. The difference is amazing- they really let my Maggies do what they do best.

Its a funny industry. Most industries embrace innovation but not this one.

Tarun, Here's the process I used to Integrate a custom powered subwoofer to existing satellite speakers. Given the constraint that the subwoofer was placed between the satellites about 4 inches off the floor, the following 4 step process was carried out ...
1) Each satellite speaker had a shelving filter designed to cut bass output starting at 90Hz to a -4dB level to reduce satellite's output that the subwoofer's BW would cover.
2) The subwoofer's unique LPF was designed to have an adjustable roll-off frequency starting 70Hz with a slope of -40 dB per decade, and ending with 110Hz with a slope of -20 dB per decade. The LPF was first set to 70 Hz ...
3) Subwoofer gain was adjusted up to match the SPL of the satellites ...
4) The LPF frequency/slope was then adjusted until there was no response suck-out at the sub to sat transition.
3) Gain was adjusted continually while 4) the LPF was adjusted to maintain a flat spectral response. Once the spectral response showed no sign of transitional error, the 4 step process was complete.

The subwoofer phase was initially set to zero° via wiring from the amplifier to the driver, which happened to be the correct polarity - Had there been low frequency spectral anomalies that couldn't be compensated for, the wiring polarity would have been swapped.

As a music lover willing to spend a bit extra to enjoy my music better, (better = more lifelike to me) but I dont get on with my subwoofer & i hate the 'Boom' sound of overworked subs. I bought a REL Q400E about 12 years ago in mint as-new con' for £400, tho it's prob' a 20+ year old model?, it cost £1000 (five 9's) new & I cannot get any bennefit from it. I do hear a deeper bass but only when my head is within inches of a wall in the room, regardless of phase setting ...but as soon as I sit on the listening sofa, all the deeper bass from music that has it, just dissapears, in fact, I think it starts to suck bass away when in my listening position. The kids like it for films where it booms away turned' up to do so, but I don't like it for music 1 tiny bit. It's a 12" driver in sealed box. I did notice that REL's have a 2 position phase switch of 0 or 180' deg. But other brands have continuously variable or a 4 position 0, 90, 180 & 270' degree phase switch, so I might need 270'deg phase shift but cannot do that with the REL Q400 (or all REL's?) I've tried the sub in various positions but no benefit. My room is fairly large (for u.k. houses) rectangular & my speakers are Accustat Model X &/or my prefered (for a deeper bass) Tannoy 15" dual concentrics (made in 1969 & still working fine after a mere 54 years but sound better on their own ...sub'less. Wuttenburg cathedral longest pipe is longer than most at 128'ft tall & goes down to 16'hz, I like J.S.Bach but not the pipe organ works, so I'm not missing much without the bloody thing.

I'm not too bothered about bass when it comes to music but with movies I love it

Thank you. Have just got my first subwfr. for use in 2-channel set-up with standmounts. It does improve the whole presentation. My only slight issue is finding the optimum tuning to handle different genres of music, given it's not practical to get up to fiddle with the controls all the time - they are inaccessible. I guess because it's still new to me, I am finding recording/genres now sound wildly different because of the added dimension.

The frequency band from 20hz to 60hz contains the spatial information ( height, width and depth ) of the venue. I have a pair of SVS SB-16 Ultra subwoofers. When listening to pipe organ the BASS has visceral impact and produces what audiophiles call "room lock".

Excellent discussion. You covered all of the issues rather than just bass extension. You also note the importance of multiple subwoofers to create evenly distributed ("fast") bass. Most audio systems can benefit from subwoofers for the reasons you have well stated. I can personally confirm the advantages with my own systems, with small speakers in a small room and larger speakers in a larger room--the improvements are very obvious in both.

My biggest pet pee is I can get phase to match very good but texture and tone is so hard to match ! I think this is what gets us Audiophiles would love to have subs with my Triangle 🔺️ 40-th comete my Ref with matching stands is a must better grounding sort of speak but no sub so far has been a good match ' Wish triangle would build a sub out of the same paper driver !! But I will agree a sub does give a fuller range of sound thanks Tarun I know old video catching up you do a great Job !!

In a nutshell. If you don't have seperate Preamp and PowerAmp it is better to avoid mini DSP / Exteanal dsp that let you equalize the main speakers with Subwoofer.
So those with Integrated amp can not use mini DSP / External dsp and thetefore better avoid Subwoofer. Otherwise it is too complicated and the only way would have to be choosing a Subwoofer with Speakers line in and out ( 8 speaker lines) in order to create this equilibrium by making the main speakers use the same DSP of the Subwoofer.

One thing to mention is that DSP wether seperate DSP or the Sub DSP when influences the signal tgat comes to the main speakers might not be the way to go for audiophiles since you are adding extra component between the main speakers and your HiFi system.

Soo.
best buy a good set of speakers that go as liw as 40 Hz and enjoy their dynamics. No need for this extra low bass. Tge bass of the speakers is good enough. This will be a three way speakers not two way. Like sonus faber sonetto III or V or PS audio speakers . Or Like more echonomical Dali oberon 5 or something like that....

I definitely don't need a subwoofer for my stereo system, two 12-inch basses are completely enough, it plays from 25 Hz, if you don't have a proper speaker, it's ok, but it won't be the same as when normal speakers play

I got adam sub 12 and i heard that you can place sub anywhere, because bass is not directional.

Why then, when i put sub on the left i heard annoying unbalance in low end? (crossover is on 57 hz) it disappeared when i moved sub in center.

Thank you sir you definitely one of my favorites....Keep up the great work

Most people do not realioze that below some 100 Hz it is not game of volume but game of phases. We may get perfect low range delivered by each channel separately but it may be often null level whan both are delivering the same frequency at one time but one of channels wave is flipped . It may be easy due to shape of room. Second problem is that audiophiles worry about controll of low bass in lowtoner . That bass is created in three ways - direct by speaker, secondary by speaker box and next by room space. In reality two last do not controll air waves at all because are resonant. Its like carying for precision streaming of water and finaly pure it free on the wind They should get used to it.

By using one subwoofer we need to make at first summary of both channels using crossovers and for frequencies which are responsible for 3D impression or exciding size of speaker's base t will probably kill that effects.

I am keen for spacious and wide reproduction and I decided not to care for range below 40 Hz because it is out of controll and doesn't make me significant difference. In such case I only worry about what goes through wall to my neighbours. I compare my relatively small widerange spaeakers to impression of famous in Europe church organ in my city and I couldn't find reason to go for more.

No one need or doesn’t need sobs, it depends strictly on what are you listening for…

Obviously full spectrum 20-20 kHz will be nice but probably you don’t need the 20-40 Hz region most of the times, and it’s the most complicated to fit in small non treated rooms (even below 50 hZ will be difficult).

If there’s a good crossover the sub helps to clear bass response, specially in 2 way speakers where drivers are working hard to achieve those low frequencies.

For my actual listening room, a sub could not be fully appreciated by my neighbors: given that they are french I don’t want to initiate an international conflict just for hearing 30 hZ frequencies 😉

I brought a secondhand Rel strata 2 about ten years ago for cinema sound i was anti sub for music. i thought id try it for music i wish i tried it ten years ago. now its made a big difference im no longer anti sub for music .

A well balanced view of subwoofers. Much has been written about their application to my chosen loudspeakers (since mid 1970s) Quad electrostatics.

I have had 57s, 63s and most recently 2812s. It is only in the last year that I've experimented with subs - I bought a Quad L-series (12" version) for my TV set-up (with the small Quad 9L monitors and it sounded very impressive, so I tried it with the 2812s in my music room, and after a lot of experimentation found that it did a great job of stiffening-up the bass below 50hz - below that, although the Quads have much better bass (when properly sited) than people think, the sub just adds that extra whoomf on string bass, and the largest orchestral bass drums (quite often 38hz, or therebouts).

I have now replaced the L-series in the TV room with the smaller Quad sub, and with the Quad 9Ls (driven by Quad Vena 2 play) it sounds very good on both film and music.

Actually Tarun real gentlemen prefer billiards to snooker😂Another very informative video which has encouraged me to splash out a hundred quid on a used Wharfedale SW150. Not remotely into the realm of audiophile, probably less than the cost of a decent interconnect for subs, but I'm sure I will enjoy playing with it, and it has great potential to annoy my wife.
Hopefully it will enhance my Br03 speakers, if not there's an off switch and at that price it won't be noticed on the credit card bill🤣🤣

one problem is that some listeners think they need to totally be aware of the sub and will adjust the balance to be anything but. after properly adjusting a sub and then shutting off the mains leaving just the sub playing usually astonishes the listener as to how little the sub SEEMS to be contributing. one must realize that a sub contributes to the completion of the sonic waveforms, especially those of the room that the music was recorded in.

making the music sound natural and complete leads to more total enjoyment of any recordings. and one doesn't need to adjust for every record you put on. set it and try to forget about its presence. every now and again I try to take stock of the sound of my system and only occasionally adjust or nudge the system in small ways in greatly separated time intervals.

adding a judiciously implemented super-tweeter can also be a great adjunct to satisfaction. the transient response of the entire sound spectrum will improve due to more defined leading transient edges. just as with a sub, the phase, attenuation level and crossover point should be adjusted with care and patience.

No! I won't do it! The lowest note on a string bass is 41.2 Hz. I absolutely am opposed to a sub. Why? Because I looked, found, and purchased speakers that complete the mission the way they are supposed to! It seems ludicrous to me to seek out a good set of speakers that right out of the gate have deficiencies. My Tannoy tower speakers are designed to fulfill that mission and their frequency response is more than adequate for the lowest notes of both classical and rock music recordings. I loved you "daft" digression and always enjoy your videos.

I leave the sub off listening to music recorded before 1980 because that was rarely anything below 41 hz, the low E on a Fender bass. For movies or modern music with low notes that get down in the 20s, then I turn the sub on.

If you use 2 big speakers you really don't need a sub because those 2 speakers are large enough to cover the lower frequencies. But off course if you use 2 little bookshelf speakers as your main system you will need something else big to reproduce the lower frequencies. I use only 2 speakers but they are large with large woofers and as you know sound is air in movement so if you have only 2 but large speakers you don't need nothing more than that. You only need a 3rd speaker (2.1) if your 2 main speaker are little thus unable to reproduce below let's say 250 Hz, so you need a sub to cover the lower end. The ideal at least for me is 2 large good speakers that cover from the lower 20 Hz and with the medium woofer and tweeter you reach 20 kHz on the highs also, so you don't need a sub if your 2 main speakers are large enough.

Oddly enough I don’t really enjoy music outside of about 50-15K. I can’t explain why. I don’t like alot of low bass in my music even if it’s present in the recording. There’s the occasional exemption of course. Seal’s ‘Crazy’ being one. I had a 15” guitar speaker on open baffle with an 8” fullrange. The 15” had a FAR of 70hz. It was perfect. I like an early rolloff around there.

I have Klipsch spl100 as a subwoofer in my system and I initially was using it in a small room to my dissatisfaction. Since I have moved it to a larger space I am super satisfied, to a point that I cannot imagine listening to music without a sub. It is a great improvment.

The problem with your theory is that music is almost exclusively mastered in 2.0. Not 2.1.

Playing music mastered in 2.0 on a 2.1 system has a similar effect to playing music mastered in 2.0 on a 5.1 system (albeit, on a smaller scale). It muddies the sound. This is why the majority of audiophiles prefer to forgo the subwoofer, in regards to music.

most big memmbrane portrd subs are too slow to use with speedy system

Dont know why you tube keeps trying to sell me subwoofers when Im looking for speakers with good low frequencies. Like the old speakers and I only see bookshelf speakers or subs and I dont want any of those. I want big speakers that are not towers.

Even before the full viedo am typing this. It's about unbelievable soundstage and a base which cannot be achieved by the most powerful speakers. But the catch is how to get everything balanced otherwise it becomes worse.