MISCUES … Should the Rules be Changed to Make Them FOULS?

I believe miscues should be fouls. It’d take intent completely off the table. One thing about extremely good players, is they always seem to get “lucky” on “bad” shots.

Absolutely not. If the APA adopted it it would start arguments, which we need less of. If the WPA adopted it it would ruin the tour. Balls in hand are a disaster, the last thing professional pool needs are more balls in hand. Unless the players are calling for this, leave it be.

Damn it Dr. Dave, don't be messin' with my miscues buddy! lol Ya know....I used to respect you, but now you've gone too FAR! ;)

It's hard enough to convince people about a double hit that just occurred. I can't even imagine how you'd convince any of these old farts who have been playing pool for 900 years that they had secondary contact with the cue during their miscue in an otherwise successful shot. Nevermind that horrible sound during the miscue that is a dead giveaway...Steve the Skill Level 6 who has been playing pool since he was 6 years old in 1852 will not change his ways.

Don't change the rules.

I agree with Dr Dave on this one!

Perhaps they could be considered fouls, I think the problem is you need a high speed camera to prove they happened if it's a very slight miscue and not completely obvious to the players and ref

I'd say that in 35 years of shooting, I've only had about a small handful of players ask for ball in hand after a miscue, but that was because no balls made contact with each other or a rail, not because of the miscue itself

A foul is a foul, inteded or not.

No! I've been playing pool for 63 years, and I can't recall having miscues being a problem for anyone except the shooter. To me, it would be like double jeopardy.

Miscues should be fouls, for the reasons your slow motion videos reveal.

Im old school - i still think jump cues should be disallowed. As for miscues I dont see this new evidence of making it a foul would dramatically change much (especially in competition) so sure I'm good with making it a foul

If miscues were to be penalized as fouls, far more people would definitely make it a point to shoot well, understand the off-center hit distance limit, be more careful with side spin and drag/follow, and in general actually improve their stroking technique and become better shooters.
So why not? :)

just to point out, in italian billiards, 5 pins game , is two year that miscue is always a foul, because is considered always a double contact. sorry for my english, but it's rather rusty.

Should be incoming player option to shoot or have them shoot again. Treat it like a roll out. There is definitely going to be more problems with people understanding the rules like with push shots. Pool is a beautiful game played by dumb people.

Hello doctor Yes you can certainly hear the difference and I do know the sound well of each

I'm sorry The music ruined it for me when you were doing the intentional miscues.
I would have rather heard the slow-mo audio or nothing at all sorry that's just me❤

Yes much better at the 410 Mark without the music❤

That is a tough call.
Whether or not every Miss q would be a foul.

Many years ago I do recall people pulling that stunt on me Miss Qing intentionally.
Hmmm
Every Miss q I'm not sure what do you think ?

no they shouldn't...not everyone follows through the same or has the same angle of play as you are recording in a controlled environment. Like trying to bring instant replay into the game...maybe for the pros you can do something like that...but its supposed to be a gentlemans game...if the called ball in a tourney is under question call a ref. league play is completely a more relaxed set of rules

I agree that all miscues are fouls.
con if you make all miscues a foul.
what about when you miscue not intentional but still make your intended ball that you were trying to make.
I have done this more than once.
yes I don't get the leave that I was trying to achieve but I still control the table.

I also think that all split hits should be a foul.

Wow. All the years I've been playing pool, I never thought of a miscue as a foul. Never crossed my mind. Miscues are pretty obvious most of the time and often result in a foul anyway. The video evidence is pretty conclusive doublehit fouls occur. However, I think a miscue would need to be defined as clearly sending the object ball off it's intended path which is always obvious. A miscue on a follow shot may not always be so obvious. One can miscue on a cue ball frozen on rail shot, for example, yet the cue ball still goes in it's intended direction. That shot can be construed as a mishit and not necessarily a miscue. Lines may get a little blurry in some instances. A rule change would need to be absolutely clear in its definition.

The rules should strive to remove anything that depends on intention because it's too subjective, and for that reason miscues should be considered fouls - as long as the definition is clear as you described.

If miscues all become a foul, what is the penalty for a miscue foul? BTW, I have blocked all your competitors websites until I have absorbed all of your videos. Thanks.

As always, Dr. Dave is technically correct, explains the concepts clearly, and backs it up with conclusive documentary evidence. However, many relatively skilled players, who should know better, persist in denying double-contact fouls, or remain ignorant of the objective criteria which can be applied, such as observing the speed and direction of the cue ball. Some may fail to correct lower-skilled players on their teams, perhaps for fear of discouraging them. People need to understand the rules before they would support changing them. I think that our focus should be on taking the time to educate all players to the principles involved, rather than risking alienating some by making more shots "illegal." Thanks for a great discussion, Dr, Dave!

gonna chalk up every shots now , i can only imagine The City League want to change this maybe i been known to be one of lucky ones in League , many probably won't admit they miscues some will

After your hard work about miscues, all miscues should be ruled as fouls. The fact that rule has been applied for many years should not be a limit for this change.

Nice work Dr. Dave.

I don’t think it’s news to anyone that miscues are fouls. It’s usually obvious from the sound that multiple strikes are involved.

However, I’d vote for keeping the status quo regarding rules.

The reason is simple - in order to be usable, a rule set must attempt to avoid conflict, judgement calls, and game delays.

In situations where the legality of a shot may be in question, the opponent has the opportunity to call a referee to witness the shot. And while a close call on a “correct ball hit” or “double hit” may require the referee to apply judgement, the decision is final.

Now consider the miscue, whose primary evidence is a sound signature.

With the exception of professional play, most pool games occur in a noisy environment - bars and poolrooms. Even statewide and National BCA and APA tournaments have constant background music, teams cheering, etc. The only person close enough to hear anything other than a blatant miscue is the player at the table. A miscue during a finesse safety will probably be inaudible to an opponent eight feet away in the chair. And if the two players disagree, the decision goes to the shooter.

The only way to enforce the rule would be to have the shot watched, but unlike double hits and wrong-ball-first fouls, THERE IS NO WAY TO ANTICIPATE WHEN A PLAYER IS ABOUT TO MISCUE. This means that a referee would have to watch every shot in every game to enforce the “always a foul” rule.

Is that a force follow shot? 😂

I definitely agree. I think it will be toughtto change the pool culture and could result in more disagreements in league games

Thank you so much for this analysis. Please stop the music during slow motion as its incongruent .. really takes effort to separate visual speed for auditory

Hi Dr. Dave! Great binge-worthy content and I doubt you'll see this comment, much less respond, but I'd like to see a video demonstrating various pro players' strokes. Some players have a long, beautiful almost "wavy" or loopy, loose and relaxed stroke resembling a"figure 8" or see-saw motion like many Filipino players, including Efron and Bustamante. While others have a high and frozen elbow with a straight take-back and follow-through. Hope I'm describing this right. I love Efron and SVB's stroke. Thank you!

Unintentional miscue should not be a foul. It is pretty rare to benefit from a miscue, but no uncommon for honest players to wonder "was that a miscue?" The difference between a miscue and other fouls is one can often warn the opponent to carefully watch a planned sketchy shot.

I agree all miscues should be made fouls.

Out of topic, but what is your opinion regarding the beef between WPA and Matchroom? Would love to hear your thoughts

Hey Dave, I’ve got an idea for a new video with a topic which is very controversial and it is yet never addressed on your channel or your videos.

„Winner breaks or alternate breaks, which is better?“

In Germany we have this discussion almost every tournament and there are good arguments for both sides. In any other sports, for example tennis, they alternate on who is starting each round . Only in pool we have the winner always starting every new round.

I think you’d do a very entertaining video about this.

Great video, had no idea up to 5 secondary contacts could be recorded on video. I agree the WPA double hit or more rule should be all inclusive and remove the word intent. Miscue should be a foul along with a video like yours to explain the new rules. The WPA has referees to make the calls. The sponsors of the pro tournaments have a variety of favorite rules. Some examples are the 9 on the spot brake from the box, racking device, winner break and more. What would stop a sponsors from making a double hit rule?

I am for ANY rule that makes each player make the shot as intended. I think most of us knew it was a multi-hit but we just accepted it as a miscue, and normally cursed at the leave. The most annoying thing in pool is a miscue where they pocket a ball by mistake, and the rules allow it.

I think, if l dont remembering wrong, a miscue was a foul back in the 1970's when we played straight pool... 👍

I would say no. If miscues are labelled as fouls, so should masse shots.

No

And they should remain allowed just as "stick fouls" are allowed in some circles. As long as it was not intentional (which is the only wording needed).
JMNSHO

And my miscues do not involve additional hits on the cue ball. And they almost all go anyway, so less ball deflection as well apparently. Perhaps because I rarely miscue on English and it is usually low or high spin, which is why the shots go anyway, Rarely if ever under the ball. Unlike all these "pros" I see who aim way down at the bottom of the cue ball regardless of what they intent to do. I never aim up like that... ever. I have sent you a few up close shots. I don't generally rehearse shots so what I post is what came out of a rack I shot off.

This will come down to a debate on just what constitutes the window of time which defines "momentary contact".
Billiard balls are hard and inelastic from the tip's POV.
Hard tips are pretty much inelastic as well.
The "soft tip" you used still looked pretty hard to me (different video)
A REAL soft tip IS elastic and compresses on impact and has a couple microseconds longer "grip time". or "tip time" and is therefore slightly better at imparting spin on the cue ball.
You should do a hard tip soft tip comparison to show that claim. I think a soft tip can actually strike outside your parameter. Is there some science why you arrived at 1/2 R as the limit of the strike point range? And then there is the masse shot shooters where elevation is required to apply the spin yet keep the ball from jutting away too far. Shooting down on the ball for a masse is better with a soft tip because of lengthened tip time adds spin.

Interesting and probably correct. However, I play in the APA, in noisy bars with no referees and no slow motion cameras. We already have 15 minute arguments over placing a marker on the pocket when shooting the 8. I can only imagine if miscues were fouls how many arguments there would be. It already takes 4 hours to get thru a nights 5, 8-ball matches.

Hallo Sir,
On the Billardforum 9ball Texasexpress gamerules a miscue is automaticly called a ball in hand Foul. So they already thought about that for a long time. Or how many players today know Texasexpressrules. I played them in german League in the 80s. See you my swampfriend.

Sanjin was talking about this with a referee in one of his matches too because he wanted to be sure that the ref made the right call and make sure the ref knew that miscuing wasn't the actual intention

Although the logic here is hard to argue against, a miscue by anyone holding himself out as any kind of skilled player already brings with it shame, embarrassment and the laughter and ribbing of his friends and acquaintances -- which is punishment enough.

A person can accidentally miscue, and the cue ball could still hit his object ball. That would not be a foul.

I agree every miss cue should be a foul cos is difficult sometimes to tell a person's intentions.