Modeling the Simple Inverted Vee Antenna #102

What about non- inverted "V" at 4m up?

ممكن بي العربيه تكون الترجمه❤

HI Dave, I particularly appreciated this video on inverted Vee style dipole antennas. I’ve been having trouble with 10 m communications, one of two bands I’m allowed phone communications at technician level. I realize 10 m comes and goes for long distance communications, but for local nets, I’m disappointed my conventional dipole w/1:1 balun 17 ft off the ground (1/2 wavelength) does not work. I hear faint voices under a lot of noise. I plan to experiment with an inverted Vee configuration by raising center point hopefully up to a full wavelength or close. Do you think this will improve the performance of the antenna? Also, is that software you used public domain or is there a fee involved for purchase.

Thank you for your videos.
I had a hard time understanding the "wire" settings to manipulare for a good SWR. it took me a minute to figure it out because I didn't catch that the "wire" settings relate to a Cartesian plot instead of lengths for the wires from the feed point to the end of each wire. I KNOW it should have been obvious. And a lot of the time I fail to listen closely enough. And NO i didn't read the manual. lol
I'm commenting for the sake of other newbies to EZNEC who might not make the connection, just as I failed to. Part of that is, as a novice and upward, I calculated 234 divided by frequency to get the length for each 1/4 wavelength of the wire. I'd run the feed point wherever I could get it and tune wire lengths for an OK SWR and was happy.
Now that I figgered it out I see that EZNEC gives us a few heads ups that a pocket calculator doesn't give. The EZNEC doesn't work with wire lengths, but with the distances of each wire end from a certain place at the antenna site. It took me a minute to figure it out. I'm writing my understanding below so please let me know if I have it right.
I completely got confused because I missed that End 1 is the feed point height above ground for wire 1 and wire 2 instead of wire length for wire 1 and wire 2.
I missed that end 2 is for the horizontal distance of wire 1 and wire 2 from a point direcctly under the feed point. One of the wires must be a minus (-) number so as to have one wire to the right side and the other wire to the left side of the antenna feed point support. And I missed that End 2 Z is the height above the earth of each wire end at the low end of each wire.
I feel real silly, but I post this in case someone else who is a newbie to EZNEC has the same confusion. Thank you again for your videos.

I have a alfa delta EE if my center points is 37ft how low my end points have to be

I have a 40-20-10 EFHW with ~66 ft of #12 insulated antenna wire and it's working pretty well. It started life as 40ft of wire and a choke with maybe 6.5 ft at the other end. It was too heavy for my first mast so I switched to wire. I met Bob from Palomar Engineering on Saturday and he sells an end fed that is 71 ftof wire and purposely non resonant. So I have now heard both sides of whether an antenna needs to be resonant or not. I may be wrong, but it seems you get more bands with non-resonant? I don't have a live Elmer so I am glad you do what you do. And even happier that you know of what you speak! As an added note. My 2 new rigs have tuners, so I have an old MFJ-271 and an LCG Z-11Pro II that I can't decide whether to keep or not. There is something to be said for having a metered tuner. The LCG works fine, but because I fined tuned the length, I don[t need either one. I did notice 20m was the worst of the 3 bands.

Good video as always. I moved from a acreage to a town. Now I have limited space and power lines to deal with. My fence’s are metal. Unfortunately I will have to use a vertical and get it high enough above these obstacles. 😢

Hello,how are you doing today, can I mount my mobile antenna in the roft top on my tahoe leaning slanded backward, my SWR are 1.1 ans 1.2 50 ohms 11 meter 1-40 channels, thank you so

Thank you.
I enjoyed your video.
You need to run your coax from the antenna to a lightning surge suppressor mounted to a ground rod (8') to reduce static discharge and lightning induced voltages that can damage your radio finals. Then connect a piece of coax to the surge suppressor and run it into the house.
My Elmers taught me this bit of critical information.
Thanks again.
N0QFT

Thanks, just got my General, still only have a UHF/VHF Anytone 878, but I understood all of that. KO4ZCJ

Thankyou for the great videos
I have been investigating antennas
As a new ham Ve5mcr
I Would like to purchase and erect a simple for me multiband antenna. It would be located on a clear space some 120 feet wide running north south by some 200 feet long running east west with a sea container/ shop/ shack 80 feet from the west edge 40 to 90 feet from the north edge The rest of the area east of the container is a large garden and orchard
I work up this area with a rototiller. I don’t think I want ground radials. While putting up telescopic poles is an option (30 feet let’s say) after putting the garden in, I don’t really like dodging guy wires all summer. A tower could be attached to the sea can or pole put close that won’t really interfere with my work

Questions. What type of antenna is best for my purposes. How do I stabilize ? Which way should in run….I’m in Saskatchewan Canada. north of Montana…

I am getting advice from local hams. Each has their favourites. Dipoles. Vertical inverted V directionals. All the options causes brain cramps. I would like a relatively simple store bought unit to start. Then I can get into the fun stuff of designing my own
I’m getting up in age 68. Will be isolated. Climbing towers does not excite me greatly. My standard joke with the wifey as I just put up the house Christmas lights up about 15 feet is….The life insurance is not paid up….then she is inclined to stabilize the ladder when I climb. If it is paid up…who knows?

Thanks Sorry for the long msg.

Cam McLelland ve5mcr

Thank you! This is one of the few videos that talks about the end points on an inverted V. Many diagrams just cut off where the ends and assumes an amateur knows what to do. Others simply say ,” they’re tied to two trees “ but don’t explain why.

Can I hide the antenna by stapling it across the peak of my house. 6/12 pitch, in the inverted V shape?

good job dave, great info thanks

it would be great if there were a simple video that shows how to build an inverted V in EZNEC. Any chance you could make that video Dave ? Just how to enter from scratch, a simple inverted V like you have ...or maybe even a Fan inverted V for 80/40 or 40/20 ? . I fully understand all the theory, just not the program. I must be dumb I can't figure EZNEC out ...lol

Thanks for the info Dave! As a tangent.... love skiing Silverton!

Your videos are GREAT! 73 de KF7RCM.

I just asked this question in your "Ask Dave" quedtionair. You may not read this, but if you do, cancell my question on your next live.
Thank you Dave!

Great video Dave. You answered my questions.
Thank you!!!

I checked Lowes and Home Depot, to find that their poles are not aluminum but galvanized steel.

Please "un-confuse" me - many other presenters stress the use of carbon fiber or fiberglass masts as opposed to metal, such as the aluminum fence top rail to which you refer. Surely a metal mast would generate RF, and if it's bottom is touching earth it would be grounded - so wouldn't a metal mast be more of a SWR liability????
MANY THANKS!

Dipoles have gain, the standard is to measure gain referenced to a dipole, dBd, that does not mean the dipole has not gain. The Dipole has a positive dBi, your own plots in this video show it. The dipole is often cited as having about 7 dBi of gain, ( dbi is of course measured against the theoretical isotropic radiator.)comparing that to your plots shows how much is lost by these departures from best practice for dipole installation. It is hard to watch a video when such a fundamentaal concept is stated wrong in such a matter of fact manner. If I were making a video I would be careful about the various sorts of ways Gain is measured. And, I would have plotted those dBi numbers you derived as one of the most important pieces of information gathered from this exercise. Takeoff angle would be another good piece of information to note.

Excellent presentation with great audio!

The inverted V was one of my first antennas used on 40 meters some 50 years ago. I had elevated the ends so it became a horizontal V dipole with a center support of only 26 feet but it worked very well, especially for daytime, short skip. A dipole has a 50 ohm impedance when the angle of the V is about 90 degrees: Nice match for RG-58 or 8x cable. This early antenna had my (W2AU) 1:1 balun at the feedpoint

I plan on making another one, just for the fun of it, from wire, balun & coax I already have and this time my center support will be about 40+ feet high but the ends will be lower to the ground. It's a "forgiving" antenna and I know it will work just fine.

With the coax, it' basically a simple, single band antenna but I have used ladder line in the past on my 40 meter dipole and that meant that it performed very well on other bands as well. With "The Window Line," both my tuner and 4:1 balun were in the shack...Because the ladder line is lightweight this antenna of mine was up high and supported at the ends, each about 40 feet off the ground...I did not trim this antenna. I simply cut the wire for the bottom of 40 meters and did all the tuning in the shack which resulted in may QSO's on 80 thru 10 meters with a 40 meter antenna and running QRP as well...

NIce one Rob. Interesting to see your setup. I am planning to try running a wire for my Xiegu g90, for a portable setup. I have been really happy with my antennae, which is the Diamond BB7V, which covers 0.5-28.5 mHz. Ive been very pleased with the performance, also considering i still have it attached at ground level. If i raise it, it should be even better. Worth a look. Thanks for your great content.

Great information Dave. I've heard you mention in several videos that you are limited to 20 feet using chain link fence top rails. Gigaparts sells carbon fiber masts that might help you get wire antennas up higher. They are much stronger and lighter than fiberglass or these chain link top rails. I bought the 25 footer and increased it's height to 30 feet by adding a five foot fiberglass garden plant support rod. The fiberglass rod fits in the end the top section and is secured by the compression clamp at the very top of the mast. Even though I'm in a wheelchair with only one usable arm, I can set the whole thing up from scratch in under five minutes without assistance.
I love this mast. It's incredibly strong and only weighs around five pounds total. It's secure enough that it doesn't require guys.. For the base, you can install a pipe (with a slightly larger inside diameter than the bottom section of the mast) into the ground or buy the tripod that's made for it. Either way, this is a great method to get wire antennas up higher. They also sell a 35 and 50 foot version of this mast. I bought the 25 footer because that fit my budget. I hope this idea is something helpful. Maybe you could review one of these masts in a future video. Thanks! Brian - W5DUI

Dave small house 15 feet to peak of roof I want to bracket a 20 foot length of steel antenna mast in 5 foot sections , will the feed line going up the posts give me SWR's I will not let the antenna wire hit any of the pipe.? Should I use stand off's for the feed line? New ham SLC ,UT KJ7TBR 73 John

here in ca the green top rails go for $42.usd each. but the bare galv are only $17.usd ea.
and the brand new bundle at hd had half of them damaged.
good as of nov 17 2021.

Great videos. I would like to use a SG 237 antenna tuner on a V antenna while camping in my RV. Hopefully, that combination will give me access to additional bands. The problem comes in that the SG 237 tuner needs to be right at the feed point. The tuner is big and bulky. I want to have the "V" antenna feed at the bottom of the "V" near the ground (where I can set the tuner on the ground) and the antenna arms stretched at 90 degrees to each other and aimed at the heavens. Will this work?

Dave got a new Icom 7300 itching to get on air . Plenty of room for a dipole . My backyard has 2 /20 ft unused lightpoles measured this morning 80feet in between.. would a hotizontal dipole be the ticket?

73`s Dave XE1BWP

In a dipole ,, is only one side of the antenna the transmitting side (hot side) or is both ?

Hi I am a 11 meter operator could I use this antenna?

With a single 20 foot high support you can have both a good 20m NVIS antenna and a good 20m DX antenna by mounting the feed point of the inverted V at the top of the support and suspend the end of a 1/4 wavelength wire down to about four or five feet off the ground to the feed point for the vertical. Then, add four 1/4 wave radials at the feed point of the vertical that slope down to just above the ground. Of course, you will need two coax feed lines. But, you then have two antennas from which to choose using the same support and can work both NVIS and DX.

Of course, if your support is metal, you may experience some coupling to the wire vertical, which will affect where it resonates. But, you trim the antenna for resonance, anyway. And, the pattern for both antennas should still be about the same. And, the sloping radials will make it easier to get a good match to 50 ohm coax, as do the sloping elements of the inverted V.

Thanks, for the video!
73
AI4IJ

Is an antenna matching box really necessary if you have a matched antenna and if you don't do you get any more power out to the antenna are is all the extra power dissipated in the matching box.

The way that you mix the imperial and the metric system in your description is amazing.
Generally speaking, when frequencies science involved in your explanation you have to use metric all times.

How about an inverted V where the two elements are not spread out side by side, but rather sloping in another V? This is my setup. The center is attached to the house up high and the two elements slope down to opposing corners of my back yard, about 40 feet apart at the two bottom ends.

Thanks Dave. This is the first substantive, data-based presentation I have seen for Inverted Vee's. Very well presented and I now know how to model the Inverted Vee I will install over the next few weeks. Well done !! 73, N7MNZ

Hi Dave, my alpha dx-ee parallel dipole (10-40m) is on a metal push up pole about 25 ft with a wooden broom stick between the push up mast and the center insulator. The ends of the antenna are up about 10 ft off the ground. Do you think the metal push up pole is negatively affecting performance? Thank you for your awesome videos. W7mss

Very good video nice job well done from Gary in the UK 🇬🇧 👏

The only questions I have about this (so far) is that you mention making the elements longer, and folding them back. Does this electrically shorten the wire length? Do they have to be in physical contact - as in bare uninsulated wire, or is the insulation generally insignificant? If I can just fold the wire back on itself at the ends, it could make for a much more versatile antenna since I could shorten AND lengthen the elements, so I could set it up a couple of different ways.

Also if that's the case - would this only work for fine tuning, or could I fold the elements back to say ... turn a 15M antenna temporarily into a 12M or 10M antenna then just unfold it to bring it back to 15M (or turn a 40M into a 15M)? Would there be any practical implications - like having to twist the wires so it makes contact the entire length it's folded back?

Hi, Dave . I have erected an inverted V cut for 18mcs. It is set at 90beg. About 25 ft high, I am trying to experiment with a v reflector at a distance of 8 ft 2inch and 4inch longer, than the v. What is your opinion.? Being a bit older than you, doesnt stop my experimenting and buying a Nano Vna, certainly helps (if you have a magnifying glass!) the set up is attached to a paracord, running from a mast via a ZS6BKW., to a tree! Waste not, want not! ! M0iiZ.

yeh every body has there opinion but i want experience thats why im here and i got so many questions!

meters feet, im getting confused

Would this work well, mounted in an attic, running along the beam work of ths roof? Which is already a similar shape.

want to build a 10meter antenna for rag chew with 45 miles between stations, could you tell me best wire antenna to use for this.

Nice video, I ran HF when in the military, we had "sloaping V" set up at tinker OKC, talking to SanDiego navy guys, I remember the legs of the V being attached to a termination box, maybe 3 feet high. We were running 12-18 megs using a prop chart, I was the guy calling QSY's 3golf, 2 papa ect,ect. Ran a hugh Tropo setup from "the hill" 3rd mobile combat comm group, we were all mobile world wide deployable. I was under the asumption that the V had it over the dipole, thanks for the info. If you guys want to see some big stuff go google earth to Cyprus and check out Akrotiri Radio Relay at the salt lake. No words to descibe the size of the Rohmbik and others there, or the old "elephant cage" inncredable old tech, I am proud to have been part of it.

Very nice video. I have tried many different antennas over the year, and unless you want to invest a lot of time and money, a well built dipole / inverted V is hard to beat.

Your videos have been very informative Dave, thank you! I just learned that son's school has an amateur radio club that operates repeater K2MFF, and I'm encouraging him to join and get his license. He's in his 4th semester in the C.E. program, but I think anyone in any aspect of E.E., would do well to get the practical experience gained through operating as an amateur. I was curious if you knew of any schools where academic credit is offered for obtaining a license? I think it would be a good way to bring new/young people to the hobby.

Another excellent video sir! I will now go buy materials from Home Depot, Lowes, Amazon and wherever else to start building antennas!