Hiddenness Disproves God? EPIC Atheist vs. Christian Debate

I don't care if any1 believes God exists or not, I'm going to believe & give him all I got because if he is real then I know I will have eternal life & if he doesn't, then what do I have to lose? Nothing then. I would rather believe & love him & go to Heaven then end up in Hell!!!

Also, it says when God walked the earth, there were people that didn't believe then, that is why the crucified him!! It was then that they realized whom they crucified

great debate! good job to both Chris and Justin and thanks to them for advancing this conversation.

P1: If an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God exists, then this God would desire a personal relationship with all capable humans, as this is a natural expression of perfect love.
(Support for P1: Scripture and theological tradition affirm that God desires all humans to be saved and to come to know Him [e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4]. Perfect love entails seeking the best for others, which includes communion with them.)

P2: An all-powerful God is capable of ensuring that all capable humans have sufficient knowledge of His existence to enable a relationship without violating their free will.
(Support for P2: Knowledge of God’s existence does not compel a relationship, humans can freely reject God despite being aware of Him, as demonstrated by Lucifer, Adam, and others in theological narratives.)

P3: Many capable humans genuinely seek God but remain unconvinced of His existence, despite being open to belief and having no impediment to their free will.
(Support for P3: Empirical evidence, such as testimonies from agnostics, atheists, and adherents of other religions who have earnestly sought God, shows that divine hiddenness is a common experience.)

P4: The existence of such genuine seekers is incompatible with an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God, as this God would ensure that such individuals receive sufficient evidence to foster belief without coercion.
(Support for P4: Theodicies that invoke free will, soul-making, or the necessity of hiddenness fail to explain why a loving God would remain hidden from genuinely open seekers. Free will is not undermined by the provision of evidence, and soul-making presupposes at least some level of divine knowledge.)

C: Therefore, an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God does not exist.

I don't think God is stupid, is capable of grasping concept of people being atheist and their reasons. I think God knew this in advance.😅

I’m never gonna know 100% all I know is that evil is real

As always, a huge thank you to Cameron for hosting us and to Dr. Cloos for being such a fabulous interlocuter. We hope this exchange will inspire both sides to engage in the deeper and sophisticated literature regarding this seminal argument.

Thank you, Cameron, for having us on and doing an excellent job moderating the debate. And thank you, Justin, for a fascinating and fruitful exchange. I really enjoyed our discussion and hope it offers others a fresh perspective on this important argument.

there is no debate on God being hidden. all you gotta do is read your bible and believe what it says. romans 1 refutes the notion that God is hidden.

Hiddenness?
woe (what on earth) is that? I don’t have 2+ hrs (that I’ll never get back) to entertain drivel.
If it’s referring to God remaining hidden for now, that’s only due to His grace, mercy, patience, & long suffering granted to us because of His love for us. He won’t remain hidden forever, & when He does appear, everything He’s created will come undone and a new unperishable, hallowed standard will be established for eternity.
It’s not rocket surgery boys.

Man... Is it just me? Or does a lot about what he thinks love is just seem wrong...?

A god who hides is a god who encourages disbelief

I tried to watch it but found it a bit too saucy. It felt like the producers' intention was to build enough sauce to drown their audience in it.

The atheist never even demonstrated that God is hidden. He just assumed it.

Let God be true, and all man be a lier!

I would incentivize all of you who are unbelievers and subscribing to this theory to actually read the bible. That way, you would be able to tell that God doesn't show up in every single occasion in every single event throughout scripture. I guess in a certain case, He "hides" when he gives the Israelites what they signed up for, but I mean sometimes it's just so easy to point out who hasn't been in scripture and who has

No one has to "disprove God." That's just silly. If you claim that your god is real, then you have the burden of proof of demonstrating that (not "proof," of course, but good evidence that your claim is actually true).

If you have nothing distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing up your religious beliefs, that's all I need to not believe you.

Cam,

You gotta help out your audience and teach them syllogistic logic. I appreciate the debate. We need more "intellectual side" of Christianity and less exorcism videos. I fear if you teach people the "intellectual side" you have to venture in to skepticism and leave apologetics. This, causes a conflict of interest.

This was a good debate. I liked that they wrote out their responses in advance. This makes the debate much more likely to make progress. Nevertheless, what was set to one side altogether was the nature of God, the likeness of that nature in relation to creatures, and the context around which, given these two things, God might in fact make himself known. Also, if we were to do the “faith seeking understanding” thing, thus not limiting ourselves to what-we-can-think-up-on-our-own, then we might notice that what was not included here was the reality of Satan, his reign, and, with that reign, his deceptive power, which Jesus points to fauna and again and again. No doubt, as philosophers, these men have methods and they need to stick to their methods. But that does not amount to “seeing the world the way it really is”. Which only proves yet another point: human intention (good will), is not all there is to this equation. It’s not even the a true formulation of it. One might not forget that the intellect first presents to the will either a real or apparent good. It’s not as easy to chop the will and the intellect into such different parts and set each of them to their respective side and say “look, here is a good will over here while its intellect is struggling a bit, and this means that God must reveal himself in such and such a way.” Which way(?), once again, we are never told.

This was no doubt a meaty debate, as Cameron points out. But there was a lot left on the bone of this debate, bits that were left entirely to one side, and whole pieces of the cow 🐄 that were left untouched or forgotten about altogether. God, God’s nature, the human will, its interaction with the intellect, and, not least of all, the cosmic warfare motif of the biblical narrative.

I'll go another way: God revealed Himself to us. Also God exists irrespective of anyone's opinions. That's the beauty of this.

This year I hiked 5 months on the Pacific Crest Trail in hopes of god. I found a few “spiritual” moments but didn’t find god. So as an atheist this debate is highly relevant.

Devine hiddenness locks well with the problem of hell. Working together the traditional fire and brimstone Christianity isn’t logically obtainable. Also, an active god isn’t obtainable.

The arguments don’t preclude god but they do preclude the traditionally rendered Christian god, a good god that’s active in our lives. I could almost argue that hiddenness removes the concept of heaven as well.

Great exchange!

I love this pre-written format. It helps me follow along, and it feels much less aggrandizing. These guests did a great job at furthering the public understanding of their field in this video.

"When death approaches any of them, they cry, “My Lord! Let me go back, (100) so I may do good in what I left behind." Quran

First class debate.

I am too holy to believe in god!

👍

It's funny how these contemporary theistic philosophers defend the idea of ​​a philosophical God instead of the Christian God, who ascended to Heaven and has promised to return for his church, so in Christianity this apparent absence of God is to be expected. It was a good debate, though.

I never thought theistic PoDH defenses could get worse. But here we are.

Free will allows for rejection. God is not adjusting is position such as his holiness so that you will love Him or for acceptance, He is Love and He is God and doesn't change.

I don't think God is hidden. I don't think God wants to hide. If he came into the world as the Logos (John 1) and became a man and lived the life of God and spoke the words of God and did the deeds of God in public for at least three years, he is not hiding.

I read the gospels and I see Jesus hanging out with sinners all the time....😅🤣😂

God has made us holy like Him.. Jesus Christ of Nazareth 😅🤣😂