Not all fantasy is from Tolkien : Talking about a different fantasy tradition with Steven Erikson

Thank you for this great discussion. I've been periodically reading Robert E Howard's short stories over the past two years and have been continually struck by the genre-blurring elements like you mentioned. (A few nights ago a read a King Kull story that that had time travel!). Great content as always, AP!

Would The Faery Queen by Edmund Spencer fit in this pre Tolkien catalogue of authors?

I think what's important here is not who came first, as first doesn't really matter all that much. There have always been stories with a fantastic element, dating back to cavemen telling stories by firelight about monsters. What matters more is who made the greatest impact and had the greatest influence on subsequent authors. That's why Tolkien and Howard (and Burroughs) are so important. William Morris is not unimportant, but did not ignite the modern fantasy genre the way these latter men did.

Disney's adaptation 1973 of "The Lost Ones," "Island at the Top of the World," kept the lost world alive at the end, as did the novel, three years ahead of the McClure "At the Earth's Core." No wonder they didn't destroy Pellucidar...Caroline Munro stayed behind and who would EVER want to see Caroline Munro unhappy?

So cool to see learned men disagreeing without being disagreeable...who are, in fact, affable and enjoying the exchange of ideas. Excellent, gentlemen. I am a Haggard fan, and the novels of his that I've read, though my reading is not extensive, never have the great white explorer plundering the pagan cultures. He knew about it in real life, of course. But Haggard lived in Africa for years, even learned to speak one of the local languages to connect with the people. In "She and Allan," Quatermain and the magnificient tribal chief Umslopogaas bond in comradeship, initially over Umslopogaas' women problems! LOL! Quatermaine might regard tribal magic with contempt, but Haggard demonstrates it's occult world is real and Allan was unwise to treat it with contempt. Unslopogaas could have probably killed Conan, by the way. And thanx for the shout out that Conan was NOT mentally dull. In "The Phoenix On the Sword" he stresses how art is more important than political power and war, and in "The Hour of the Dragon," he vocally favors religious freedom!

Isn't Wakanda technologically superior because of the large amounts of adamantium?
Not because of the lack of colonialism?

Wakanda even subjagated local tribes to Wakandan laws

I sometimes feel like Erikson and I read different books when it comes to the black company. I struggled through the first books and gave up aboiut 30 pages into book 3. Just wasn't exciting or interesting imo

REH was heavily influenced by not only Burroughs, but Jack London and a very underrated adventure writer named Harold Lamb - particularly Lamb's Cossack stories. In Lamb's Cossack stories, you'll find ancient ruins, rugged landscapes, low "magic", the clashes of cultures, heavy doses of Orientalism, etc - all elements you'll find in REH.

Of all you brilliant videos AP this one touched my soul in a different way. It brought out so many feelings in me about 'otherness', and the struggle to reconcile the brilliance of a work with the morals and / or ethics of the writer. Truly food for thought. Thank you for sharing some of your personal experiences, they were poignant. Always illuminating when you and Mr. Erikson get together for a chat.

I love Malazan and my son is a fan of Robert E Howard. He’s flying out to Texas for the Howard Days April 28-29 at the museum in Howard’s home town. Also, One thing he filled me in on was Howard and Lovecraft were friends.

What a great discussion! Genres, despite being so often strictly demarcated, blend constantly, and they never develop in a straight line. The only thing I'd push back against in this video is the exclusion of religion when discussing the development of fantasy as a genre. I know you two purposely swerved from that nuanced and controversial can of worms, but I think western pagan and Christian (which admittedly, ahem, borrowed a lot from different pagan traditions) faiths alike are intrinsically tied to the genre's evolution in the West. You need look no further than Tolkien himself for proof.

I really enjoyed the John Carter movie, was a fun movie.

Great video. I need to read Conan

I haven't had time to watch/listen to this whole thing... So my apologies if it's addressed (but I doubt it).


What do you think about Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan? I've recently finished re-reading it and this whole topic itched at the edge of my brain. I understand that it is pure allegory and as such a very pastoral piece, but still it is very fantastical. Does this have a place as pre-Tolkien fantasy?

This conversation needs some Wittgenstein

Has AP ever given the lore on where his intro sound comes from. Cos it’s great

I always think of fairy tales and the retellings and reforming of them through the ages as being a huge part of fantasy's roots.

The part about fantasy elements in myth making really got me thinking about debates in/on "Oral History." I can always count on you two to give me a lot to think about... and to also maybe give me future channel ideas. Great video!

The Arthurian legend changes quite a bit depending on where you are. I happened to be in Britannia, France for a folkloric festival and there was this storyteller telling that story. But the focus was on Merlin. He had a daemonic father but he rejected that and went to save the kingdom with his magic. Great video AP, thank you!

First thing first: Steve's gloves are very cool! I like his style quite a lot!
Second: good to see you, I've missed watching you two discuss. I have very much enjoyed this, thank you so much! I would love to see you discuss religion, I'm very interested in your takes on it :)
Third: A.P has changed the position of his desk and even though it's obvious, it took a few minutes for my mind to process what's different :)
Cheers and see you in the next one :)

Oh yeah, here we go!

Always love listening to you two talking about any subject. It always makes my day better. Thank you

Wish I could take a side. I need to read this stuff

Thank you for filling in some of the gaps in my knowledge about the origins of some of my favorite literature. For me, Howard was huge in influence, but also D&D, both for which I wouldn't be reading the literature I read today. Such a great discussion!

Steve is all in around 40 minutes, when the gloves come off. 😆
(But really, he needs to turn off the snow blower before cleaning it. 🤣)

What's interesting is that Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith (and I am not sure about Howard) mention that they were strongly influenced by Lord Dunsany, who wrote most of his stories before their time and came from England. But Dunsany was similar to Tolkien in his rejection of the modern industrial world and looked back with melancholy at the past. Besides that, I just read my first Burroughs, The Land That Time Forgot, that has all these variations of ape-men. And I contrasted that with Doyle's The Lost World. They are fun to compare. Have you seen my latest blog entry? I tried to do exactly that.

Religion is fantasy. 😅

Going to enjoy listening to this as I go for a walk thx <3

You should press record right at the beginning, at worst, you'll have a blooper reel 😆