Episode 145 - Things ROGD Parents Need to Hear (even if they don’t want to)

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My favourite time of the week. Thank you Stella and Sasha for your compassionate and nuanced insights. PS you both are wearing your best colors!

Over the generations there has always been this attitude "what do the parents know", "boomers" etc dismissing parents knowledge and experience but it's almost like it's gone to the next level now, young people in society are being encouraged to lead in the parent/child relationship and it's being encouraged by schools, doctors, society as a whole, we've never seen this before. It must be very infuriating and humiliating for parents to be treated like this.

There are no "gender diverse" children, because gender is a bullshit term meaning nothing. There are only confused children, being taken advantage by unscrupulous doctors, insane affirmation therapists, activist schoolteachers and various other trans cult/ gender cult members. That's it.

If you want to fight a cult, stop using the language of a cult.

FYI this contains a commercial that hasn’t caught up to the name change from GETA to Therapy First.

You both are so brave and appreciated for speaking your truth from the wisdom of your personal and professional experiences. You help us realize that we have done our best to lovingly parent our children in extremely difficult societal circumstances within the context of our personal situations. While I was listening I remembered when our daughters were 13 and I said to the mom whose daughter influenced mine into FTM-dom, “I have no idea what’s going on in their heads.” Six years later I know a lot about the RODG phenomenon, but I still don’t know what’s going on in my daughter’s head and have no power over how she chooses to live her life. All I can do is hope that I did the best I could to equip her with resources to navigate life’s challenges.

Thanks for another great episode full of wise guidance.
My son is 23 and I don’t know ( I don’t think he knows either), if he is RODG or AGP, but he is very woke, and he currently believes both of those terms are not real. So therefore, he is not learning anything about what his condition actually is … he just says he’s trans and wants hormones and doesn’t wanna talk about anything else. So therefore I feel like I have to do this research ( also for my own need to understand) and thankfully he is looking at some of the videos I send, even though he’s still too woke to open his mind to realistically sort out what’s really happening with him. He has had no sexual experience and says he’s bi… am I wrong to think that once he does get a little sexual experience that he may open his mind to these views?

My book is at the publishers, should be out by February. 🎉🎉🎉
Excited ad nervous.

I watch this channel because.....Dis is the TTinking persons take on gender.

Great podcast, I am learing a lot from this channel. It is a shame I only discovered it this week and I have been a parent of ROGD for over 3 years 😢. Is there any parents group (with more comperhensive views rather than affirming) in Ireland I could join?

Please do a podcast on shame! My 16 year old daughter desisted this year but she’s feeling guilt and shame for wasting over 2 years of her life socially transitioning and identifying as a boy at school. When school started this year, she went back to using her birth name and that old identity is gone on the surface but for these kids, it’ll still be buried inside them until they have closure. She can’t wait to be done with high school and start fresh in college. Thank you both for what you do. You were a huge part in helping me get my daughter back! The only positive thing about this experience is we became very close and she talks to me about everything now ❤

ROGD is not a clinically proven theory/diagnosis. Lisa Littman retracted her original paper in June 2023.

As an ally to the non-medical cause, I go onto Twitter every day to bring myself into at least one conversation. I have switched from defense (providing links to debunk people) to offense (providing links to Genspect videos and information). I'd love a single link to a resource page of yours that serves 2 purposes: 1)Helps anyone trying to make sense of all this. 2) Helps break down the barriers between the trans activists and people who are trying to divert the conversation supporting non-medical care. For instance, today I directed a person to Genspect who was curious but at the same time, a person was arguing with irrelevant screenshots such as, FDA Approval of Lupron but they didn't give the source or that it was for precocious puberty. I could participate in more conversations if I could provide a single link and move on. I've applied to X to become a community notes contributer as well, and I'll be using your resources as much as possible when not using sources such as Wikipedia, the NIH, etc.

I love your work and I pray for you, in spite of not being religious. ❤🙏

You guys talk about how the AGP boys may not be ROGD because they're AGP... But from what I have read and heard about AGP -especially the latest Transparency podcast by the Aarons- it can cause gender dysphoria, but it isn't like the "old school transexuals" whose gender dysphoria began in childhood. A teenager or boy can have an autogynephilic tendency or paraphilia, but not have gender dysphoria and not even be gender non-conforming outside the space where he fantasizes about being a girl/woman, or taking on certain accoutrements of womanhood/femininity, etc., AND develop a rapid onset or late onset gender dysphoria. He can grow to reject his masculinity, his body, his sex, his genitals, the sex stereotypes assigned to him as a male (the male gender identity), through the internalization of social messages and social cues, online community formation and discovery, the realization that he "can transition" and embody his fantasy permanently, he can become obsessed and ruminate constantly about gender, when before, he didn't do this at all, but simply, um, indulged in his private, personal, intimate autogynephilic practices or fantasies (whatever they were).

So I wouldn't separate AGP from ROGD, but instead contemplate that AGP is one path into ROGD. Or is that totally wrong?

Shame is not essentially, always, a negative emotion, and it is often related to feeling embarrassed when knowing, or thinking, that others think ill or us, that others have judged us and found us wanting, that others know, or believe, something bad about us, that others know that we misbehaved or violated a social norm, a moral boundary, etc. Guilt is an emotion related to something that one has done (or thinks one has done), and it can be horrible and cause a person to feel shame, on top of the guilt, but I wouldn't separate them as "guilt good", "shame bad", because they can both be useful in making a person avoid a behavior that is harmful to the community (speaking in broad terms here), or they can be maladaptive and negative if they paralyze a person. I think "shame" gets a bad rep in the contemporary world, and I am not sure why... guilt, however, gets a good rep, and that is more puzzling still.

Great episode, as ALWAYS. So helpful to communicate to us parents all the layers that we might be missing in ourselves as we try desperately to help our children. Specific feedback: the wording of “gender diverse.” Slippery slope here to validating the notion of gender as something innate and separate from biological sex. It has been said that there are over 7 billion “genders” because every person in the world has a unique personality comprised of infinite combinations of stereotypically male and female characteristics amongst other traits. If we say “gender diverse” instead of male or female with a unique personality, or just gender dysphoric, or from your book title, “people who say they’re trans,” then we are falling into the trap of proposing that if people’s “gender” variation does not match their biological sex, then their bodies can/should then be tinkered with. And “tinkered” is quite the euphemism, right? Five years ago, I ventured out into the shaky territory of discussing sex with my then 15 year-old who was insisting on a double mastectomy because I wanted to make sure she experienced her erogenous zones before cutting them apart. I also wanted to know if there was sexual trauma behind her very sudden hatred of her body that seemed to be exceeding the age-old teen girl discomfort that is now so horribly given a new escape hatch through “gender affirming care.” And to the notion that all teens and young adults presenting with gender dysphoria or a trans identity might not be ROGD and therefore might be more likely to benefit from transition…Yes, admittedly, I am “peaked” and don’t believe in medicalizing inner feelings, personality variations, or reactions to societal limitations either around sexual orientation or restrictions on/abuse of the sexes. So, with that caveat…AGP individuals could perhaps be helped to accept their sexual orientation (as Phil Illy proposes classifying it) of attraction to themselves as female without altering their body in ways that I believe older transitioned people who are being honest say are harmful — fake vaginas prone to infection and hormones that kill the sex drive anyway and increase the likelihood of cancers and mood disorders. As I understand it, gender medicine has been offered to younger and younger people for many reasons, but one central important one stands out— that older transitioned people were actually NOT doing well. So the reasoning was, let’s transition people earlier so they can pass better, as it was believed (hoped?) that their low functioning and unhappiness were due to not “passing.” But the recent study by Littman, O’Malley, Kerschner, and Bailey strongly suggests that many more complex factors lead people to regret their transitions.

Some thoughts while listening on my walk this morning....I am the mother of a TIF, and I have no sons (at least not one without a vagina. heh!). I have often thought that somehow a transitioning son would be even more heartbreaking, than the daughter I am dealing with now. I don't know if this is a common thought of mothers of TIF's or not? Or if it's a very sexist way of thinking? In any case, it seems like AGP is really on the rise, as well as ROGD. And while I agree they don't necessarily seem to be the same thing, I can't help but come back to the source of all of this springing from the *power of suggestion*. Would we be seeing the rise in AGP as well as ROGD if these kids had never come across it in porn or social media? Are these AGP boys truly born AGP? I have a hard time believing it, but I admit there is a lot I don't understand. To me it seems so obvious what internet influences have done to our very impressionable and vulnerable kids. I think the "power of suggestion" is, well, so VERY freaking powerful. I just finished watching "Escaping Twin Flames", another documentary on an online cult on Netflix and it's frightening to see how easily rational seeming people are influenced by such idiocy. At the end of the docuseries they report that there are over 10,000 cults operating in the U.S. now and that since the pandemic, online cults have grown significantly (sidenote: it also ends up being a trans affirming show, citing the 1% regret rate of medicalized transgender people). I really just don't think enough attention is spotlighted onto how kids are getting into all of the mental health problems - including gender dysporia and AGP - anywhere. The free internet has been a shitshow for our kids. Perhaps all of humanity??

Fantastic episode. I love listening to you both talk! I am so grateful that you dive into the details like this.

Near the end of the episode, Sasha was talking about how to work with parents of children for whom transition seems to work, and who pursue it as a long-term "strategy". I really like this phrasing of transition. I consider "gender dysphoria" to be a chronic mental illness (I don't think I'm saying anything controversial, but maybe), that likely manifests due to numerous different reasons. I don't think it's necessarily all about discomfort with secondary sex characteristics either- I think that the DSM definition is too narrow in this regard. I think that its probably more a psychosocial phenomenon. I think that under certain circumstances, transition can be a good strategy to manage it. I know people would argue against that, and say "treat the mind, not the body"; there are also the arguments surrounding women's spaces, and sports, and the argument that transition reinforces gender stereotypes or erases homosexuality...I don't know how to address all of these issues. But I think for some people (like myself) transition can have an incredibly positive effect on their mental health. I don't know how or why- and I'm not sure it matters how or why. I struggled with my mental health my entire life, I have been on and off antidepressants, in and out of counseling, self-medicating with drugs and alcohol, I had one pretty bad episode of self-harm, and suicidal thoughts...then I decided to transition, and after several months or a year, my mental health improved significantly. These past 2.5 years have been the best of my life; gender stereotypes be damned. This is my one life, and if transition is what it took (for whatever reason), then this is the strategy I choose, and am grateful that I did.

I feel really bad for parents dealing with this issue now. I am really grateful for the work that you do. Thank you for reading all this! 💜
-Jen

More thoughts on this video! 

I know that the FTM side is the most dominant in the conversation right now, especially regarding ROGD; I can't really speak to the FTM experience, but from the MTF side...I think that for adolescent boys who begin to cross-identify as girls, there is probably so much more to it than just "AGP" or "HSTS" per Blanchard typology. I'm sure those are real phenomena, but in terms of understanding and addressing the etiology of MTF trans-identification, I think those are the "low hanging fruit". I think if an adolescent boy is cross-identifying as a girl and it does not seem to be a case of ROGD, then my hypothesis would be that it is likely caused by complex trauma (e.g. child abuse and/or neglect). I am 100% against childhood or adolescent transition, but I think if counselors had the opportunity to really figure out and work on the underlying causes of the child's cross-identification, they could help to avert a lifetime of major depression and anxiety and all of the other issues, including risk of transition regret. I know this is currently considered by some to be "conversion therapy", and perhaps still- transition might be the most effective treatment in the long run. I really don't know. I can only speak for my own experience, and despite the fact that I struggled for so many years, I am somewhat grateful for those years, because I am now confident in my transition, and mature enough to have ownership over the decision and to consent to the risks.

Thank you!

Hola! muchas gracias por su ayuda cómo puedo tener una terapia con ustedes? agradezco mucho la información que brindan es de gran valor

Another powerful episode ladies. My 2 cents:
Gender distress is not the individual child’s issue, it’s a family issue— A family of unique members already whole and complete. No one needs to be fixed. That being said, each may have their own adaptive strategies around gender distress and guidance is appropriate for all.
It involves disruption of our patterned adaptive behaviors (internal and external actions) to move toward the family dynamic we seek.

A parent's process will unfold at its own pace, in its own way, and it will be as unique as the parent going through it. It may include a need to vent on social media or jump into activism, and it will definitely include much time spent desperately seeking answers. I judge no parent on the route they take or the destination they arrive at. May we all ultimately find peace and self-forgiveness.

Wouldn't a "data-obsessed" autistic parent with an autistic ROGD child be operating exactly on the autistic child's wave-length? An autistic parent who is sways by facts and not feelings is likely to have a child who will respond to facts, not feelings. Overall, even if the child is not "data-obsessed", knowing the facts is essential to their process of finding themselves on their quest of identity search. I'm a bit taken aback by your insistance, here and elsewhere, that conveying facts and research to teens is a bad idea. It seems to me that you are going along with infantilising teens.

If we are comparing ROGD teens with "old school transexuals", are those "old school transexuals" who exhibitied gender non-conformity as very young children? That cohort did tend to outgrow their GD, so this is not a valid comparison. Are you then comparing them to AGP adults, by calling them "an AGP child"? What is next, "a pedophile child?"

An AGP child is to be contended with, just as an AGP adult is to be contended with? First of all, why are you labeling children as perverts? AGP should be an adult diagnosis. Second, why are you treating AGP tendencies in teens as permanent? Why do you not address grooming and porn? Since when AGP is an inborn sexuality that needs to be contended with in kids and teens?

"AGP kid" should not be an expression used by a therapist. Not every porn-fueled thought or fantasy needs to become a label for a child, whose sexuality is still developing. Frankly, all of this is insane.

I have heard Sasha and Stella use such terms as "pre-gay kids" and "kids who will grow up to be gay." So cleary you are skilled at being very precise with language and have been trained to avoid labelling children, even if it comes to the LGB sexualities. So why then "AGP kids"? What is the purpose and where are you heading with this?

disappointing to see condemnation in the comments for honest discussion of AGP. AGP is probably the biggest driver of the increase in teen boys wanting to be girls. Many AGPs report pre-pubertal exciting experiences trying on girls' clothing etc, but it doesn't really kick in until the testosterone surge at puberty. They used to come out in middle age, but now they're coming out in their teens. Porn doesn't make them AGP, it's that AGPs like sissy porn. Is sissy porn likely to speed up their desire to transition? My guess would be yes. Are AGPs who might've settled for cross dressing now being transed unnecessarily? My guess would be yes. Tired of the sanctimonious bullshit on this issue. Do the damned reading.

I would be very hesitant to call a child's role play AGP bc. the sexual aspect would be missing. For similar reasons you don't apply the term "psychopath" to a child with psychopatic tendencies. Other than that I appreciate your compassionate support of parents.

Such a helpful episode. I think there is a lot of pressure on those of us living in the U.S. to go the nuclear option - cutting off all our child's online devices and all their "toxic" friends. As well-meaning as this is, our children are likely using trans-identification as a coping mechanism. It's usually not wise to take away a coping mechanism without replacing it with something else (and if they are teens, it can't just be the parents.) Our kids live in the world and for some reason trans-identification makes some kind of sense to them. I also appreciated that there are some families paralyzed from taking any action at all. That's not helpful either, you must communicate your thoughts and values. It's such a tricky, trickly balance, figuring out what our particular child needs. There are many paths into this mess, so by necessity there will be many paths out. Beware of the overly simplistic, one size fits all answer. Thank you, Stella and Sasha.

Hey guys, I just tagged your channel in an Instagram post of mine. Just a heads up. Keep up the good work.

This episode of the podcast really hit hard for me. Especially the part about "swat team" parents. My parents were hardcore isolationists and kept me in that "Rapunzel tower" for my entire childhood and I believe it led me to take up a trans identity. And thats despite the fact it was meant to protect me. Going to far into the isolationist realm can definitely cause more problems than it solves.

Autistic here 💁🏼‍♀️ And I can tell you the ability to hyper-focus is (one) of the biggest contributors to me being able to absorb so much of the information around this subject. I am at my best in so many ways, when I can dive into a subject and learn about. It’s always been that way, and the topics have been everything from horses, figure skating and psychology, to now: (since about 3 (ish) years back) the world of gender, sexuality, etc.

- While horses are cute, and figure skating impressive, the questions around the subject you’re talking about, is so important on so many levels. Which adds to my interest in it. There’s obviously a sense of urgency in this, and I keep educating myself on it every day.

Thank you so much for bringing awareness to this and for being a voice of reason. ❤

thank you

Thanks for bringing up old pre-internet information. These transexuals and transvestites really existed with no internet or whatever radicalised Americans are calling "grooming" these days (sounds like the "gay agenda" propaganda all over again)

I do think it's important to include trans adults in these conversations because this impacts them, too. They have lots of experience. I have had an FtM friend for 27 years (I've known him since I was a teen). His perspective is helpful.

I also was a very active part of the LGBT community myself. I was a dancer.

Both of my daughters have ROGD, but each for some similar reasons, and some very different reasons. I thought maybe my older daughter really might be trans. Now she loves skirts, favorite color is pink, wears make-up, extremely feminine, and has mythical creature identities, loves her body, autistic, still thinks she's trans. My younger daughter was adamantly a girl, but did not like developing a very curvy body. They are both giggly teen girls. Nearly all of their friends are trans identified. Many were put on T as teens, and 1 had a double mastectomy, all feminine girls. It's become normalized for teen girls to medicalize to look like "a boy in a dress."

Ah, Stella. I agree with you 90 percent of the time, but when I disagree, I disagree A LOT. Social media is a cesspool, especially for adults. There's absolutely no point in fighting any culture war there. Social media is like World War I--it seemed important at first, but after years and year and years and year and years of no progress, everyone is realizing it's just a huge waste of time, effort, and energy. Plus there are way too many casualties.

Speaking of things parents don't want to hear, and related to this video, I wonder if we could have an episode on estrangement. Cutting parents off seems to be a common endpoint of this single-minded focus on autonomy over other aspects of life. If parents are meant to stand back once the magic age/stage is achieved by the child, respectfully watching from a distance as they make these decisions, not interfering, stoically accepting that we must "leave them to their fate", improving ourselves by taking up hobbies and reflecting on how this has made us stronger, teach us how, because I assure you it's easier said than done. All I have seen for advice so far involves confessing to crimes I haven't committed, begging for forgiveness for doing the best I could. I'm hurting. This is unnecessary, and it's being normalized which is causing people to lose sight of how awful it is that families and the health of our children are being destroyed

60 Minutes,CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBC, all news agencies MUST share this information (there is so much more than 2mins. can depict!)
Plus this news reader is terrible - seemed distracted and should have read the WPATH FILES in preparation. She is missing taking a lead on the BIGGEST medical scandal of all time.

❤

I am listening to your book right now. I wish I had read this 3 years ago when my Dystopic life started with my ROGD child.