High Level NPCs, Followers, and DMPCs | Running the Game

It's unfortunate that you've never experienced a good DMPC but the DM in our friends' campaign is excellent at running his.

I'm the DMing for the first time. Im only running a campaign for my brothers at the moment, and I'm playing a DMPC. It's an undercover dragon that is checking on the potential of the heros to ensure they will be capable of solving the overarching conflict in the world. I've made him effectively mute to avoid them deifying his opinions, as one of my players enjoys breaking the fourth wall to ask for instruction. I did it initially because they are a party with no tank, but I decided it could make for an interesting reveal later on once they are strong enough. Do you think this is innately wrong? I've made it fairly clear that death is possible for all players, including NPCs, but as a more experienced DM I feel you or a fellow commenter might have pointers on not making it feel as though I have been protecting them. So far, I've only thought of the dragon saying, "If you weren't strong enough to survive, then you wouldn't have been the heroes we were searching for" If asked about letting a player die or come close to dying

So i have to make my case for the DM PC. I play with my kids 13 and 15 and they want me to have a PC. My PC almost never has influence on the story. He will answer contextual questions and more or less follows the rules you use for high level NPCs, but he os the same level as the party. The story never needs him other than to make the party a little bigger and add his roguish abilities, I sometimes have them role his abilities. Ocassionally he will speak up if the kids have forgotten some detail that may help inform their decision, particularly if they know they are missing something but can't remember what it is. We have played 3 campaigns the first with DMPC the second not and they wanted me to have a PC in the third campaign. I honestly don't know why they care. Perhaps it makes it feel more like we are experiencing the story together. In any case it has only ever been fun and they seem to like it.

the only DMPC I've encountered who has worked 100% perfectly was Kat Kuhl's character Lyn in the old star wars version of the Campaign podcast. she was so perfect that when Kat left and the story switched to a new campaign I ended up losing track of the show and haven't followed it in a few years now.

Im running a DMPC in my campaign because i want my players to have more intresting low level combat encounters. The rule is that i made with my players is. My character makes no decisions. He will do whatever you ask of him and the answer is always yes. Hes just a hireling with a backstory

I commonly make DMPCs for one of two reasons: 1) I commonly run for only one or two other people. It is very difficult, even with my decades of experience, to reliably balance interesting encounters for only 1 or 2 characters due to the variability inherent to a dice- based system, especially at low levels.

2) I once (and only once) made a STRICTLY healing DMPC because i was running 4e (which i will never do again for these exact reasons) for a group that could vary from 3 players to 8 players depending on who actually showed up that night... 4e is VERY strictly designed for 5 characters and ONLY 5 characters. So i made a Cleric whose ONLY abilities were healing and i only played her when i had fewer than 5 characters... and on those occasions, not only did she heal more than the enemies could put out in damage, she consistently healed more than the PCs (with a guaranteed-crit party buffing bard) dealt in damage...

but the relevant point is that DMPCs made for a specific purpose to support the PCs and not supplant them can and are a useful tool in the DMs toolbox

I used the dwarf pregen from Last Mines of Phandelver, the original 5e intro adventure, as a DMPC because I only had two players. It worked well because he had a characteristic that said he always waited for others to make decisions. It kept him from being too awesome or me from taking advantage of my DM knowledge.

I started even before you did, back in the late seventies, and the advantage of high level "retirees" living in towns, villages and City-States was murder hobo control. Yeah, you can't really rob that house of ill repute. Madame is... never mind, but don't try it :D

is it just me, or did Matt repeat himself 3 times about Silvano?

The people in charge of Hommlet thought that they were dealing with murder hobos and minor banditry; NOT demons and imported humanoid minions. They were busy upgrading small towns and wilderness with fortifications and roads, for newly trained patrols and frontier subjugating troops.
Elmo and Otis had begun to notice, as well as the priests of the deity that put them all down. Saint Cuthbert. The whole point of the players being there was to blow it all wide open.

I have one NPC - a satyr named Alkhimenes - that I run in a ancient Hreek themed campaign. My idea is to run him as a Greek choir, commenting on party's actions. The party runs into him after every few sessions.

I know it’s been six years since you posted this video but wanted to let you know that your “the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice” comment brought me to tears. Thank you.

Because they are rich now! Rich people pay other people to do dangerous stuff 🤣

I love this episode, even 6 years later. When I use a DMPC, I use them to tech the game at low levels. My typical DMPC will be a slightly higher level, one or two levels up and will always be what the party is missing(Cleric) I try to use them to teach basic mechanics, role play and action economy. I've had a lot of success introducing new players in this manner. I don't let them carry on with the party, I narratively "write them out" at some point.
Just thought I'd throw this here for a DM/GM who has a table of brand new players.

The thing with all early D&D is that there were literally no DMs or RPG designers in existence with more than a few years of experience, and they all had a very limited pool of source games and small player community. Today, DMs with 30-40+ years of experience are not uncommon, and there have been several generations of experimenting with different playstyles and mechanics that we can all draw upon.

There was amazing stuff right out of the gate, and by no means is everyone with a long track record actually good at what they do (or a good fit for you and your group). But there were only talented amateurs and prodigies at the beginning, no seasoned craftmasters (or seasoned anythings) back then.

This might be a little bit to old to get an answer, but I wonder what your opinion is on DMPCs when the players also want it. I run a game for my sister and best friend, and the two of them are new to DnD, plus I'm not as experienced as a DM. We each have our own characters, but we're also playing through Call of the Netherdeep and all agree that we kinda just wanna follow the story and hang out. I let them make all party decisions and just use my character for flavor, jokes, and to help out (she's an Artificer, so it's also cool that they get access to whatever infusions they want as a party). She has no special magic items, but she does help a lot with tool checks and taking hits.

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And never let anybody tell you that a small group of dedicated people can’t change the world. In fact, it’s the only thing that ever has.”

Let's take the gospel to the bank.

You can do a DMPC, but s/he shouldn't stick around after the adventure. Make a new DMPC for the next adventure. It works out because then you're not super attached to them.

I think if your DMPC doesn't have access to language, and isn't in charge, it just might be possible....

I like the idea on using your non-gaming friends as high level NPCs. When I had DMPCs, I always kept them at “home base” wherever that was (party’s ship, castle, house, shop, wagon, whatever) practicing their trade and doing whatever administrative tasks the party needed. It gave a good RP reason for a character to stay home, and it was an easy job to rotate characters in an out of depending on who was DMing that adventure. And, of course, the DMPC could keep an ear out for rumors and find work for the party, making it an easy way to deliver adventure hooks.

Man, rewatching this video from the future when WoTC has had to completely backtrack their attempts to revoke OGL 1.0a because of community backlash, that last message in this video really hits different.

I will NEVER play Diplomacy again! 🤬

That quote at the end was wonderful.

I think when it comes to DMPCs, it's definitely a fine line. In the final fantasy game I'm running for my friends, which takes place predominately in a desert Kingdom ruled by Moogles, the DMPC who brought the party together is also a Moogle part of this Kingdom. I think the key thing that my players like (as a couple of them have used DMPCs before) about Mogi Baba (my Blue Mage) is that I built him with the same parameters as the party. He is there for some story purposes and general information, but he's not at the forefront. The campaign is tailored to the players' backstories and he does share a past history with one character's father, but again is ultimately there to provide minor assistance as needed. He started off as 2 levels higher than the party (level 4, they were level 2), but he didn't gain levels until the party was the same level as him. And now he levels at the same rate as everyone else, and I withhold many items from him on purpose since the focus is the party. He is not the know-all-be-all, and I do make sure to differentiate GM knowledge vs PC knowledge. It's not always easy, but that's when it helps to have more of a passive character that helps the party but isn't the answer to everything.

**takes a gospel to the bank; gets thrown out for turning over the moneylending tables; ends up getting super-famous for being imprisoned about it by the government insuring the bank; becomes pawn in central conflict of political tension about an empire which goes on to write a gospel about it all in their interest, which they send back in time to be taken to a bank in an attempt to exploit compound interest laws**

It was an epic campaign I could go on about... religiously. ;p

What was Matt talking about at the end, when he said a few group of people can change the world?

pOlITiCs

I just had an experience where I had to be a DMPC. I had an ogre from another world (a character from a novel series I enjoy). I never in a million years thought my players would ask him to join them. Why would they want to be upstaged? I couldn't see him refusing, so instead, I had things in place that let me neutralize him, so the players could be the stars.

I have some ex-high level NPCs in a campaign. To nix this problem, the last time they saved the world they had to sacrifice their powers or take a dissability to prevent them being great adventurers again when they're needed again.

He said reptile god so many times I had to check if I were tripping

'you're trying to save a village from whatever Cal is doing. They on the other hand are trying to keep Vecna from turning the Omniverse into a lab experiment.'

In one game I played a GMPC that was a elf cleric that was completely happy supporting the group and was happy to never take the stage. The players never found out that she was a silver dragon that took her elf form and never revealed her secret.

I have read that having a "GM PC" is a rpg anti-pattern. Only a GM that is mature enough to play their GM PC authentically should do that. An immature GM would put the spotlight on the GM PC, hogging the adventure for themselves, and aggrandizing themselves over the players. Not to mention putting the answers into their mouths is a form a railroading. However, when I was running a game with only one player, I included a GM PC if only just to bolster the player when they got into combat, but also to give the player ideas about what to do next. That worked ok because the player was just getting back into rpgs and needed the help to find their way.

My favourite way of running party NPCs is to have a couple of them, and have their ideals or perspectives be quite different. That way, if the party ever asks their advice about something, they'll get two different answers. It makes it very clear that the words of the NPC's aren't to be taken as the "word of the DM". Those NPCs can be useful ways for the DM to provide the players with more information or perspectives they might not have thought of, but that info is always going to be filtered through the lens of the particular NPC's personality. So the players quickly get used to taking anything the NPCs say with a grain of salt.

A more unique situation on the dmpc situation that I'd like to know more on and something that has happened to our horde of the dragon queen game;

We took a enemy commander captive, meant to take her to the next city for questioning, but along the way, we learned of her story, how desperate she was, how driven she was, and how the dragon cult just took advantage of her need for help.

Eventually she betrayed the cult and became a full member of our team. Story wise, it was a damn great redemption for her.

Problem was, me and some others did want her to stay, which meant the dm had to use her a dmpc.

So how do you handle a situation where the players want the now recruited npc to be involved with them more but it creates a conflict of interest for the dm?

This guy... This GUY is a briliant DM, has amazing big community, works on games, is awesome writer and HE MET FLASH. can YOU trump that?

if i had any dmpcs they would be the most gimmicky trash builds i could find cause i think it might be fun to play underpowered charachters, just too much of a risk if you are an actual player

ah the classic time loop edition of Running the Game

I've played a pacifist cleric for healing.

One thing I do with DMPC's (if I employ them) is have them be NPC's that the players can meet in the campaign and do some missions or quests with before they can recruit them. The DMPC's don't stick with the party unless the party asks them to. I have them answer "no" 99.99% of the time because, I usually make them have a job or other things to do.

Another thing I like doing is having them get increasingly more annoyed with the PC's if they keep throwing them into deadly situations and/or treat them poorly. And if the players irritate them enough, they will outright refuse to acompany them on missions and quests.

Damn, dude, I could have guessed within a couple weeks when you recorded this video as soon as you said, "Gosh, I am burned out on politics now for obvious reasons."

It's 2022, and I still feel this. :(

I read the giver in 5th grade... It has had a massive impact on my life, outlook, and world view. I say this, looking back from where I sit at 40

We're lvl 4 at the moment and we're gonna fight an adult green dragon in a couple of weeks, so now I'm definitely talking about hiring several hunters to help in that
There's also this one high level necromancer with an interest in keeping us alive so if things really go south I see him coming and bringing us back from the dead

One day I want to DM a Star Wars campaign set during the Clone Wars with a super-overpowered Jedi (obvious DMPC, looks and talks like me irl, players are hopefully annoyed) who gets Order 66-ed halfway through the first session.

The first time I played a D&D campaign, we had four players (three of them brand new) and the DM was concerned the party wasn't large enough, so he played a DMPC, who he started at Level 3. Unfortunately, his Gloomstalker ranger leveled up at the same times the rest of us did (milestone advancement), so we had a 6th Level Gloomstalker/Rogue with a bunch of 4th level characters of brand new players who didn't understand powerbuilding. So he would one-shot a troll and shoot a bunch of arrows and the rest of us were just kinda there (none of us even had extra attack yet). And it took me a long time to figure out why I never had fun in that game until we had three new people join us, and the ranger stopped traveling with the party and suddenly my character felt important for the first time ever. (At level 7)

I have a 3.5 character that I stopped playing because I moved away for college that I had spent a little under 4 years playing as in high school, playing them nearly every week from level 1 to level 15. That party he was part of I now use as a cast of NPCs & potential allies or villains for the party to interact with in the world & run this 15th level adventurer as a potential threat if the party doesn't align itself with his cause which is morally grey & not necessarily in the interest of the collective good, but does involve the overthrow a magocracy that doesn't necessarily exist to better all people either. The dilema of trading one council of mages with differing goals for a singular authority figure with a vision. I also pull my friends' characters from past games I've played in & run them as cameos for that friend who is now sitting at my table.

"I don't know why you would take the Gospel to the bank..."

Clearly you haven't watched Season 1 of The Chosen...


Oh wait, this video predates that series...

Every time he says “bigger fish to fry” take a shot of water.