Olympic Saber Fencing vs. HEMA - Different Ways to Cut

Fencing is a sport. HEMA are not
sports. One is based on points. The others are based on who is left on a battlefield.

Both modern hema and olympic fencing OL are combat sports with rules and point systems, WHICH CAUSE THE STRATEGY DURING THE COMPETITION FIGHTING.
OL has more rules, obviously. almost all attacks in both OL and hema are liniar and barely someone thinkgs of the defence. Often there are double hits, meaning both competitiors would be dead or suffer fatal injuries, but since there is points and protection, noone cares. Both fighters are very linear, no circular movements. Nobody thinks of the protection, only about the berseker attacks.
Lets check the longsword for example. The protectors allow to attack as if one was superman, due to the protection. Yet, as we know it, if one had big armour during a real fight, one would fight in a different way with the sword. The same is for some "world championships of knife fighting". All suicidal attacks due to not thinking about own protection and timing.

the one thing I think the video slightly overlooks is that there is also a bit you can do with your body, a "heavy blow" in olympic style fencing would probably be something that involves more footwork then shown here, the "flunge" where the whole body is used I imagine would certainly qualify as a "heavy blow"

I'm a bofferer getting into HEMA and I found this interesting! We prioritise less weight in the swords, and all hits count, no matter how light, so I feel like it's somewhere in between these two, but many of the same principles still work!

Female audience?

Ill say both hema and fie is tons of fun.

I see a more focus in Olympic with purely tip cuts, which hema has but like you've stated with a blade with actual edge it looks funny so you do need alignment. the Olympic seems to be basically a rapier with saber length with little to no edge to use so it's more or less a pokey stick. I would theorize based on this video that is the case. Great video though, also, I think the term you were looking was is called "longpoint" at least that's what I was taught doing German saber (forgot the masters name).

It amuses/amazes me how much of this stuff actually applies to firearms and our modern understanding of terminal ballistics and actual combat vs competition shooting.

In my opinion, you can substitute kinetic energy with a sharper blade for penetration allowing p= mv to have more of an effect without overly exerting yourself ( I assume this is a given but it was not showed). Also, I agree with your first assessment about hitting with the tip in mechanical engineering it would be considered a classical "mechanical advantage". But I believe the bladed weapon will bring the stress to the fulcrum, which in this case will be your wrist or shoulder if you are locking your wrist. Especially if you are trying to build up the joules to penetrate in an attack. This can wear you down over time. A sharper blade reduces the kinetic energy output needed allowing you to stay in the fight longer.

i like to get close, i form up with feet side by side hands 'to low' near waist sword held strait up & down in front of me because as soon as i can im going to deflect step in and grapple your sword arm, fastest way past some ones guard is to get beside them holding their arm :P but i mostly do reenactment and just sparing with mates i never did more than a few classes fencing
but i can do a reasonable 1 inch punch so i dont need a wind up for power its always from the core if its going 1 inch or 50 so long as it has a few inches to pickup speed its basically as powerful as a haymaker style swing
if you had your arm at 45* instead of beyond the power point you can use a wrist flick powered by your core but you cant use core once your arm is past 45* and its strongest at a 90* bend at elbow
IMHO everyone holds their swords way to far in front of them as if their some kind of object to hide behind, they should be held closer where you can use them with full power in a real fight
when i used to run around on streets i was never worried about ppl waving knives in front of them like a sheild, it was the ones leading with a hand with knife at side waiting for opening to stab that u watch their the ones that might kill you

The way I fight with a sword as I grab somebody and start stabbing them repeatedly until they die keep in mind this is in Blade and sorcery VR game, so it’s not entirely realistic.

So with all due respect to their art, this Olympic fencing style seems like it is composed of cuts/actions that would do essentially no damage, especially with such a light sword. At the end of the day, when your life or honor is on the line, you must do DAMAGE to force your opponents submittal. Maybe I'm too ignorant to really speak on the subject. My sword training is very little. Just my initial observations.......

I usually like his videos but his technique on the Olympic sabre cuts is totally wrong. The thumb is on the back of the handle, in line with the blade for great control. Not wrapped around like he does it. Beginner mistake. Also, the angulation of attacks is not telegraphed: with that grip sabre fencers can change the angle of attack at lighting speeds, going for a feint. If it looks telegraphed, then it's to lure you in to commit to a parry, then the feint and direction change will come in. All this will happen at blinding speeds. Some of those "telegraphed" attacks, are often ripostes, so the opponent's blade is controlled for a fraction of a second.

Modern sabre comes from lighter, dueling sabres. So it's about speed and control and those dueling sabres could do plenty of damage from a dueling perspective. I think it's in Egerton Castle where the "thumb behind the blade grip" is basically called something that leads to a pretty, flashy style, but not a military style.

Bro made a proffer that he is going to speak about the difference between olympic saber fencing and HEMA and ended up talking about how weak the cuts in olympic fencing are because they only emphasize on speed.

Skallagrim…thank you for learning that lesson.

Ya don't remember what I heard about this year's ago when I was researching it, felt shoddy then but anytime someone into medival fighting talks about sharpness. I just get annoyed and stop watching I'm a butcher and if your not your don't know sharp. The difference in sharpness between what you need to cut different meats and what can cut bone is a large difference, but most people would consider the knife that can clearly cut chicken to be the be all end all of sharpness it's not, and when people start trying to explain sharpness it just gets annoying. Also such a thing as to sharp you actually loose control at a certain point idk how that directly applies to sword play, but after a certain level of sharpness you have reduced feel, are liable to cut into the bone rather than around it and because of that are almost as likely to cut yourself as with a dull knife. Please stop talking about this.

Idk, I just can't find much respect or care for martial arts that are touch based on the competition level, like a lotta karate and taekwondo, yes, both COULD be effective... the problem is finding anywhere that trains them in a EFFECTIVE WAY and not just for tapping peoples ear with your big toe and being considered proficient.

Yo! I was a foil and saber fencer back in high school and early college. I was also into martial arts (Win Chun / JKD). In my opinion, you cannot compare sport fencing with HEMA or any martial arts. It's like comparing TKD with Krav Mega. One is a sport where nobody get hurt and the other is full on pain and more detrimental. Love your content!

"This is not a lot of penetration, and I'm pretty the female audience would agree.." 🤣🤣

From a HEMA context for 18th and 19th century fencing the question is whether the exercise would be to simulate a fight to the death or first blood.

Olympic fencing is electronic tag, it has basically nothing to do with sword play anymore

But Marth can KO faster if he can tipper smash!

If my coach had ever seen me draw back my blade to deliver a cut with my wrist, he'd have chewed me out to no end. You cut with the fingers in olympic sabre. Never cut with the wrist. You telegraph and open yourself to stop cuts. I fenced competitively for decades, winning multiple state championships in sabre.
The lack of mass with Olympic sabre would mean that you'd slash at the hand and retreat. There would be little chance at a successful parry. Perhaps you could take a beat attack to the head.

Sport fencing is just a sport being meta-gamed to the maximum in order to take the best possible advantage based on the specific rules, it's like how many team sports like the recent WC, train intentionally how to foul because that's what the rules allow.
Additionally many elements of sport fencing were enacted specifically to maximize safety because before the mid 20th century, injuries were still extraordinarily common naturally pushing it towards.

Main thing I dislike in Saber sport fencing is the extensive simultaneous attacks where both players are trying to abuse the ROW rules.

That last cut you touched on, is exactly correct. In a real saber duel, if you miss a cut, you can sometimes turn your hand and make an upwards draw cut to the wrist as the opponent closes distance for their counter or riposte, but since saner is scored by your sword making contact with the lame of the opponent, adjustments were made. Number one, the side of a saber at the tip is quite flexible, so there's less of a chance of harming your opponent, because the blade will flex through their wrist. Second is the light saber concept you mentioned; Olympic Saber is very fast, and you only have to make contact to score, so by only using a half turn of the wrist and cutting sideways, it is much faster. Any speed advantage you can get in Olympic saber is not only appreciated, but necessary. This also explains that weird twist during the belly cut. You have to be pretty close to hit that cut, so your opponent has ample time for a counter attack. If you don't make that weird twist, it takes longer to get your guard back in position, which leaves you exposed. Since edge alignment doesn't matter in Olympic fencing, that twist of the wrist doesn't change the distance you have to be at to make contact, and you get your guard up faster. And because of the right of way rules used to help score in Olympic saber, if your opponent hits your guard, it counts as a parry. So if they hit your guard but you both of you hit for a light and both lights go off, the point is scored as a party-riposte for you. This makes it much more important for you to get your guard back in front of you as quickly as possible.

Fencing is a sport, not a martial art.

It's time Olympics please... Replace fencing with HEMA, boxing with MMA, and the god awful, postit note on one eye target shooting competitions with IPSC or 3gun

Really comparing Hema to Fencing is just a little silly in general. They are about as similar as Hema and Boxing. Foot work, timing, and some abstract ideas of when to attack and how to doge are the same but that doesnt really mean anything. Its just a completely diffrent sport, the only thing that could make you think they are even vaguely similar is the rough shape of the metal object you hold in your hand. Like F1 racing to a monster truck rally, you both use the abstract definition of a car to do it but I dont see any F1 racers going over to start driving a monster truck over some old cars. They just dont have any overlap at all, completely different audiences and completely different appeals

The thing is Olympic fencing is NOT a martial art. It may be BASED upon martial arts, but it evolved into a sport comparably to golf or tennis. Not a martial art comparable to boxing and judo. And that is exactly the problem with Olympic fencing. It SHOULD be a martial art. But it isn't.

About your thought on lightsabers and weapons with not oriented edges: rotating the forearm in the middle of the swing as your elbow is getting too close to the torso (instead of forcing it to stay in line to keep your edge alignment) is something very common in cane and stick fight manuals, since it offers a greater acceleration (due to the difference in angle velocity) of the "weak" of the weapon, producing a much more powerful blunt impact.

You can also add power on an "Olympic cut" with a lunge-stepping to bring yourself, that is part of your weight moving forward, on that blade's kiss without moving your arm dramatically/considerably. Oftentimes, I like to deliver harder blows or thrusts, depending on that's a sabre or a rapier, with such footworks-body momentum rather than bigger uppertorso movements or hipturns. This is not for opposing your opinion.

Basically its more like a game of tag so to speak vs a slap or hit. The fastest way you can touch somebody with your sword without getting touched by their sword and not exposing yourself to being touched.

I tried Olympic saber fencing decades ago... because I thought along the lines of true combat and not sport, I was soon warned that I would get disqualified for brutality if I was in a tournament.

(Secretly I took that as a compliment and was very proud! Sport is not for me!)

I noticed HEMA people are also generally fat and out of shape.

mini golf can be seen as golf for people who just want to do something fun for an hour, not a real sport. i think a more apt comparison would be an american baseball player showing up at a cricket game or vice versa. they have similarities but they have different rules.

Lol sport fencing to HEMA is like minigolf to golf. hahahaha

get hema to the olympics

I had spoken to someone that wanted to take fencing to learn how to fight with sabers for self defense for whatever reason.

female audience? SHHHH DON'T SCARE THEM AWAY

a lot of people bring up the e=mc2 argument in firearms too but fail to actually *do the math*. Like in the 9mm vs 45 argument, the 9 has half the mass and does not move fast enough to make up the energy loss. I'll assume it's doubly so with blades as with either weapon your arm is the propellant. Hence lighter won't ever be that much faster.

Great video man.

The difference is how much of your body you put into it. Lile with the axe. Focus mind and total engaged body probly slower and your fully committed but you have to do it like you want it. Taps and slaps won't cut it lol

I love your lessons bro 10/10

I know that you don't really do practice swords reviews but can you please give the statistics and your opinion and thoughts about that practice sidesword?

And in general I'd appreciate (and I'm guessing that other people would) some training HEMA swords and gear reviews.

basic layman terms explaning fencing vs hema
fencing : how do i score a point as fast, and as accurate possible, it doesn't matter if im hit, as long as it hit him first
Hema : How do i kill that guy, while staying alive

Basically, olympic fencing is boring.

What's with the grade school penetration joke. I'm supposed to take you seriously?

I really want to do both 😅